Image courtesy of BBC
Torchwood, loved by many, at least until the death of Gareth David Lloyd’s character Ianto Jones.
Twitter is, well, “atwitter” with fans lashing out. Threats of refusing to watch until Ianto Jones returns, “Torchwood is dead”, and, “they destroyed Torchwood” are among the many statements I have read personally.
Gareth David Lloyd as Ianto Jones Image courtesy fanpop.com & BBC
In my opinion, all the characters so far have done a great deal to add a certain twist to the program. Granted, Gareth’s character was well portrayed. He brought just as much human emotion as Eve Myles’ character, Gwen Cooper did.
So what is it about Ianto Jones that can create such fierce loyalty in the fan base? I hope to use this post as a target for the fans to express their thoughts, and explain just what it is about Ianto’s magnetism.
Eve Myles as Gwen Cooper Image courtesy fanpop.com & BBC
Gwen Cooper, in my research, I have discovered a… distaste for this member of Torchwood. Many feel that of all the cast members to survive thus far, Eve Myles character should not have been one of them.
I also welcome your comments regarding Gwen Cooper, and why you feel her character has no place in Torchwood. Personally, I feel Eve Myles did a great job. I liked her humanity, her introduction to Torchwood gave us, the viewers, a look inside the mysterious and unknown depths of the entity that is, Torchwood.
So this post will most certainly be updated on a regular basis as the comments play out. But the big question is this…
Will Ianto Jones rise from the ashes to rescue Torchwood from an uncertain fate? It remains to be seen.
Cheers! Nyrhalahotep
And for MORE Torchwood love, come see me on sciencefiction.com today and join the discussion! Want to see an article you’ve been thinking about? email me at bryan@ScienceFiction.com I look forward to hearing from you!
Be sure to fill in the new Poll below!
nyrhalahotep 
Jips
January 12, 2011 at 4:27 pm
The problem after COE, for me, is the show change completely. I could accept the show is now to america, the problem is the two last characters are not anymore a strong reason for me to continue support the show.
Ianto Jones is a strong character, who had been loyal to his team and give support to the Captain even if Jack kill his girlfriend. We see him evolve in the show and to be honest, more I was watching Torchwood and more I want to know about Ianto Jones. He didn’t had special abilities, he was just a human doing his best to help his friends. He know the code of Torchwood, he know how replace someone, he go buy clothes for his friends etc. He was quiet, working in silence and everyone can trust him (even after Cyberwoman). He’s ready to even sacrifice himself to save one of his friend. All that leave me to love and care for the character. He was also a very strong bisexual role model until they transform him to the “clown” of COE. The one you keep bashing at school because he can love the same sex relationship. He litteraly pass “bisexual” to “gay” in COE which didn’t made sense either.
My problem is the character was waste instead to be exploit. The death scene was just ridiculous to me, how it was written neither I do believe it was necessary. We all know Jack can sacrifice someone, Jasmine, the 12 children in 1965, the child in a novel. If they have just write Ianto like “it’s over for me, I leave Torchwood” it will be far more accepting.
Gwen in the other hand, is “push” so hard. This is Gwen, this is the one you going to love. This is the heart and soul of Torchwood. She become the second in command without exactly know why. She come to dictate everyone, give orders, but she’s the least experience member. Her moralities lessons to me are annoying. We are told she love Rhys, but she drug him, cheap him just for her own agenda. I don’t dislike the character because of Ianto, I dislike the character because I don’t find any reason to love her. I don’t wish her to die, however with the “people die young in Torchwood”, the reason they give to us to explain Owen Tosh Ianto death, I don’t see why she should still be alive.
Miguel
May 26, 2011 at 9:33 am
I definitely do not agree with the bisexual / gay thing about Ianto!!! Sexual orientation is completely irrelevant… The same goes for Cap Jack. They weren’t gay or bisexual, they fell in love with the person, no matter the gender.
Second, Gwen brought something special to the group. She proved an incredible leader in times of duress. The one who never lost hope when Cap Jack “died” after that bringer of death creature was released from the rift. No, she’s not perfect and that’s the point!!!!
Luísa
January 12, 2011 at 5:39 pm
Yes, basically what Jippy said. Since COE I´ve met lots of people who are under the impression I dislike Gwen because I like Ianto, when one thing has nothing to do with the other. I dislike Gwen because she embodies the term “Mary Sue”. She is the latest member to arrive, has no extraordinary abilities, and yet is on charge when Jack leaves. She has a wonderful boyfriend to whom she constant lies, and on whom she tried to cheat literally two minutes before walking down the aisle, and nobody calls her out on that. And on the third season she took the final step towards Mary Sue-ism: she went through an explosion during her first trimester of pregnancy and somehow didn´t lose the baby. That alone would be enough to bring down all claims that the season was “realistic”, even if it hadn´t shown two competent, expercienced agents locking themselves in a room with poisonous creatures without masks or antidotes, or the password to highly classified government documents being given to a girl on her first day of work.
Long story short, I never saw any reason to like Gwen, but I wouldn´t have so big a problem with her if the production stopped acting like she was perfect.
As for Ianto, I always found him the most heroic character on the show. Look at all he went through to save Lisa! And afterwards, he transfered that loyalty to Jack. He deeply cares for the ones he loves and he´ll stop at nothing to save them. I´ve seem people claiming that Gwen “humanizes” Jack. I never saw that. The first person to call him out for how hardened, distant and bossy he is on the beggining of the series is Ianto. And you can see Jack actually listens to him, which makes sense since Ianto seems to be the only one to understand the hard decisions Jack has to make every now and then. He understood Jack´s decision on Small Worlds (it said so on the Captain´s Blog) and did not want to risk bringing back Jack and Tosh on “Captain Jack Harkness”, because he knew the consequences would be huge. And later, on 2×11 (one of the two episodes in which I kind of like Gwen, the other being 1×10), Ianto knows about Jack´s secret facilities and believes Gwen has the maturity and right to go there. Jack doesn´t. It shows him to believe Ianto is more ready than Gwen to participate of Torchwood´s management.
Ianto´s also creative (capturing a ptnarodon with chocolate), witty (it´s impossible to not love a witty character), a good fighter, able to go on missions and keep being the team´s badass bulter at the same time, and the most misterious character of the show. Of course he has flaws, mainly that he sometimes gets blinded by love, like on Cyberwoman. But that just makes him a well rounded character. Unlike the production seems to believe, perfect characters are no fun.
Also, as Jippy said, Ianto was a wonderful GLBT role model. I´m straight, but as someone who grew up watching all things Star Trek I can say that the comments I´ve seem bisexuals making about him are the same black people like Whoopi Goldberg, for example, made about Lt. Uhura on the sixties. My main problem with COE wasn´t even the bad writing or the killing off of my favourite character. It was the fact that everybody was retconned to fit heteronormative patterns. The straight couple who had all the problems I´ve mentioned above suddenly have a perfect marriage and an apparently immortal baby, while the gay couple´s functional, respectful, commited relationship disappeared and, like Jippy said, Ianto was turned into a “clown”. A gay clown who died a pathetic death with a scar on his face that resembled an old GLBT symbol.
I didn´t give up on Torchwood because my favourite character died and my least favourite one was promotted to lead. I gave up because the writing was offensive and lazy, and because there´s no way I can take the “we´re being realistic, it´s a dangerous job, anyone can die” thing seriously after what happened to Gwen. I´m not wishing she had lost her baby, I´m just pointing that that´s what would have happened if the show was indeed aiming to be more realistic. Oh yeah, that and Jack and Ianto wouldn´t have forgotten the masks.
Sorry if it was a bit of a rant, but I hope it has helped you to understand my point of view.
Nyrhalahotep
January 12, 2011 at 5:45 pm
Here is a post that didn’t quite make it here in the comments section, it’s an excellent post, so I’m copying it here.
Ray Newton says:
January 12, 2011 at 5:39 pm
I’m almost computer illiterate, don’t have facebook or twitter so I don’t know if this is right, but I saw your comment onIanto Jones and Gwen Cooper.
I think Eve Myles is an excellent actress, and I really enjoyed her character at first, a good strong female character who was an interesting conduit for the information the audience needed. Unfortunately, she was turned into a petulent, pouting bimbo whose idea of loyalty was very… elastic to say the least.
Ianto was a character who grew and developed. He was, I feel, an excellent role model. (I speak as a straight female of pensionable age,) and it was good to see such a relationship portrayed as a positive idea.
The whole series of CoE was a shambles. The holes in the plot are too numerous to count, but if repaired there would be no story. Ianto was simply thrown away, his death rendered meaningless.
I know it is unlikely that he will come back – and given what I hear of the new series this may be a good thing – but many of us mourn the stories that could have been told, and now never will be.
Awix
January 12, 2011 at 6:27 pm
Hmm. I remember watching CoE when it went out and saying, even as Ianto was kicking the bucket, that there would be ructions on the internet over this, as he was the most popular character on the show.
The question is, why? Especially given as he’s such a cipher when the series began. I think this may be the reason why – the other characters, particularly Jack and Gwen, were written in an almost totemic fashion, you knew exactly who they were and how they would develop from the first episode. Gwen and Jack in particular are very Rusty Davies-ish characters – Gwen and her life are idealised rather like Rose is, even when Gwen’s doing objectionable or ridiculous things. Jack’s more a collection of quirks and tics and angst wrapped around a sign saying ‘look at me aren’t I enigmatic’.
I think Ianto’s popular because he’s not ‘obvious’ like the other regular characters were -the character did have a chance to develop naturally, as the makers figured out what GDL’s strengths were. In the meantime I think a lot of fans just projected their own ideas about the character onto him (he was such a blank canvas).
I was a bit upset when Ianto died but I can see how it worked in the context of the story. (I did hear rumours it was partly GDL’s idea to do it, but have no idea if that’s true.) I can’t see them bringing him back, as it would turn the show into some kind of comic-book soap opera. Nor can I see them killing Gwen off – even if Eve Myles jumps ship they won’t kill the character off.
I’m curious to see how Miracle Day is received. I thought the first two series had serious flaws, trying too hard to be cool and culty, but Children of Earth – oddly enough, particularly the non-Torchwood scenes – seemed to me to be a proper grown-up SF drama. The problem is the mainstream audience may view Miracle Day as some kind of cult rave, while the hardcore fanbase is still grumbly and raw about the reformatting of the show and the team roster.
excentric
February 3, 2011 at 7:04 pm
I agree that COE was a brilliant political drama, but it wasn’t Torchwood. It used the character names and actors to sell the drama to the BBC, but it wasn’t Torchwood. Seriously, that time-traveler, Doctor’s companion, Dalek-fighting Jack; and Ianto who smuggled and kept alive a cyber-man into the Hub, would go to fight aliens with no protection, and a ‘Let’s yell at them. That will make them leave.’ action plan is completely and utterly ludicrous. What a waste of potential, just so RTD could come to America and mess things up even more. Bad writing does not make good television.
Awix
February 4, 2011 at 5:19 am
Well, I agree with some of that, though I would still disagree that CoE is more clunkily written than much of the rest of TW. I’ve already discussed how I think the tank scene in day four is understandable in terms of the story and that particular situation.
The problem with a show like TW, with a fairly limited format, is that it does get tired and tend to go off the boil after two or three years. You could argue that the change of emphasis in CoE is an attempt to fend this off. I’m more interested to see what happens in MD than I would have been in another run just based around a new problem coming out of the rift every week or so.
nan00se
January 12, 2011 at 6:42 pm
Initialy I liked Gwen although at times I found she was overwritten and became a bit histrionic .I loved her scenes with Rys and had no problems with her flaws–all the charactors of Torchwood were complex and flawed -that is what made it interesting.The difficulties came in COE when she was turned into an all fighting action women–I just did not find those scenes believable.
Initially I tuned in for CJ but Ianto grew on me–partly his humour and partly because along side the competant young man there was an air of mystery about him.In season 2 he blossemed into a field agent with a bit of a flair and subtlety which made him fun to watch.In COE his compassion and emotional depth was far more compelling than Gwens monologue in ep 5.He became my favourite charactor and I liked the relationship with Jack which combined flirtatiousness with understanding and warmth.His bi sexualty was a plus as it gave us some insights into bi sexualty and that was refreshing.
I will tune into Miracle Day becausse of Jack but if it is no better than COE even he will not keep me watching.I am not a fan of fast paced action shows as they often lack depth.Equally plotholes which had been present in the first two season were more obvious in a serious drama.The first two season were both fun and though provoking whilst COE bordered on sensationalism.
I tend to be very characotor orientated so RTD’s propensity for killing of his charactors makes me wary of investing to much time in the new Torchwood.
However I suspect if Ianto or even Tosh ot Owen were still in it I would be more inclined to stay with it even if it was not living up to expectations.Charisma between charactors can make up for many flaws and that is a difficult thing to predict.The original Torchwood team had it in spades,
And you always felt there was a lot of charisma between Ianto and Jack and it was lovely to watch.
Chrys
January 12, 2011 at 9:36 pm
Gwen was supposed to be our viewpoint character – but she turned me off from the very beginning. She lied to Rhys in the first episode, made obvious mistakes in how she handled events, and ultimately I felt as if she were being pushed down our throats as the “perfect” character, while being fatally flawed. Nothing against Eve Myles, but I never, ever found anything attractive in Gwen.
Ianto, OTOH, was internally consistent, flawed in such a way that he was clearly not perfect, and yet had a loyalty and single-mindedness that I would have dearly liked to see in Gwen. Yes, he made mistakes – but he made them for a reason, and not just because it was easier to lie. He was the “everyman” in Torchwood that Gwen was supposed to be, the average man with average skills thrown into a crazy environment and doing what he had to – and we loved him for it.
Many of us still love him for it – and as you’ve seen, many of us will not watch a “Torchwood” that is without him. Children of Earth destroyed the campy, wonderfully quirky show that so many of us adored – and left us with a scorched earth feeling that no “Miracle Day” can repair.
excentric
February 3, 2011 at 7:06 pm
Agree with all of this. Well put.
D&S
July 14, 2011 at 9:55 am
Just a thought…..
I have always been a TNG fan. What I loved: the Captain and the Doctor, Num1 and the consoler- they were (almost) always in love with each other… However, the creators managed to fresh things up by letting each of them to fall in love with a guest-star while maintaining their one-true-love-ship in the background.
I guess I was hoping for the I/J-ship to be given the same kinda treatment- thus maintaining Jack’s flirty side throughout the entire program without jeopardizing his true-love-ship with our Ianto (which should have, in my opinion, eventually take place in the last episodes)… I guess the whole problem here and the writers’ need to kill my fav character came from them rushing I/J into relationship-mode too soon, thus needing to affectively kill Jack’s personality or the relationship to be able to keep the suspense…
What do you reckon?
Kiki
January 13, 2011 at 11:18 am
I think in Gwen’s case less would have been more. You simply can’t write a character that cheats and lies and drugs his boyfriend, later moons over her boss on their wedding and who gave a damn that Tosh had a crush on Owen and STILL think that most of the fans will see her as tzhe pure and caring heart of Torchwood. I think the more they tried to sell me that Gwen is “awesome” and “caring” the less I liked her. She that kind of person who get’s everything though she doesn’t really deserve it while everything the other got was bad luck and in the end dead. People like that are annoying enough in real life, I certainly won’t fall for a character like that on TV.
I also think that many people turned to Ianto (and Tosh and Owen) because of how badly Gwen was written. You can connect better with the other characters then with her.
Everything that was Torchwood for me is gone, and no, it is not only Ianto. Though it started with him. I gave the show a second chance after Tosh and Owen died and all I got as more (pointless) character death. This was when I decided without Ianto returning I wouldn’t waste my time on the show any longer. But since then things have changed and not for the better. Cardiff, beautiful, different, oh so fitting with his mix of old and new Cardiff is gone. The whole background, with Queen Victoria and everything, forget about it, it’s all about America now. The “normal” looking British/Welsh cast gets replaced with standart “Hollywood” faces. The spoilers about a likable paedophile make me sick. I would still watch if Ianto returns, simply because I’m a fan of Gareth, but I doubt that I would like it or even would call myself a fan.
Apart from that Torchwood is dead for me.
kirri
January 13, 2011 at 2:29 pm
I watched Torchwood to see where they would go with the character that Stephen Moffat created in Dr Who (ie Jack Harness).
I did not even notice the character of Gwen, to the extent that, when a newspaper published a full body (and lots of [photoshopped] body on view) picture of Eve Myles billing her as “The star of Torchwood” I at first though that they had coupled the wrong caption with the picture of someone I did not recognise, then thought “Eve who? and finally though “Why do they think she is even a star, let alone the star??” Even after I had pursued the picture form all angles, I did not recognise her.
To be then told that not only is this Mary-sue (the character now, not the actress) the star, she is “the heart and soul of Torchwood” just sticks in my throat. For a start, I shall watch what I wish, and make what assumptions about what I watch, as I wish, I have not needed someone to tell me what to think and what to assume since, well, since ever, really.
It is the same as “Rose” all over again. I was OK with this character right up to the point when RTD, having realised that quite a few of the fans of Doctor Who did not, in fact, empathise with the Rose character, decided to force feed her to them.
I balked, with a result that I positively loathe her now, and will not watch anything with Billie Piper in it. Aversion therapy at it’s finest, and it cost not one penny! So, when it became obvious that a very large percentage of the viewing public did not see Gwen as the heart and soul of Torchwood, everyone else that they did like was eradicated, so they would have to like Gwen.
Not. Going. To. Work.
Tacking “Torchwood” onto a title does not make it Torchwood, whatever the show’s producer might say.
This new show is not Torchwood, and I shall not be watching it.
I, and, it would appear, quite a number of other people.
kirri
January 13, 2011 at 2:32 pm
UGH… I apologise for all the spelling mistakes in the above post, please correct them in your head, my spellcheck has gone crazy.
ang
January 13, 2011 at 2:57 pm
My Ianto opinion is here. 🙂
http://angdrw.blogspot.com/2011/01/torchwood.html#more
Nyrhalahotep
January 13, 2011 at 3:18 pm
Kirri, hahaha sometimes I write so quickly I’m three words ahead and can’t make sense of it when I go back to proofread! haha
Thanks everyone for the GREAT comments, it is shedding some very interesting light (no pun intended) onto the Torchwood series.
Cheers, Nyrhalahotep
Syl
January 13, 2011 at 5:46 pm
First I must apologize for my English. I’m French and had to translate this.
I’m a neophyte to Dr.Who, I stumbled over Torchwood on a boring afternoon. In the beginning watched because of Jack. Not really noticed Gwen. Not that I dislike her. She is the inevitable stereotype of the young woman getting involved in something big.
Ianto on the other hand made me curious. I came back because I wanted to learn more about him.
I watched the character grow in depth and humanity. (GDL is a wonderful actor) And I liked it.
What is more alien than the human soul?
Series 1 and 2 had good and bad episodes, but it was CoE day 4 and 5 that really destroyed the love I could have for the show.
Yes, I was sad about Tosh and Owen, but they died for a reason. But Ianto died for the only purpose of drama and sensationalism. And I really hated that Jack killed Stephen. (Am I the only one who thinks that this was “sick”. I mean killing a child on TV . I must say this had offended me, regardless of the reason)
That has made me dislike Jack profoundly.
Yes, yes I know his tragic immortality, the responsibility to save humanity etc. etc. There was no need to kill Ianto and Stephen to make the point that Jack is the tragic hero and the world a dark place. A good writer would have found other ways to make this clear.
About the “Ianto is dead, he can’t come back” thing . I must laugh when I read it. Because those people are OK with aliens, fairies, immortality, time travel, rifts in space and time, even blowfish in red sport car, …but think that a “dead” character can’t come back. Sci-fi fans know that everything that had been done can be undone.
So there is nothing for me in MD
Ianto is dead,
Jack is dead for me,
And Gwen was never the reason I watched in the beginning.
Ianto was more heroic then Jack, he was more caring then Gwen. And with all his uncertainties, his flaws, his fears, he was so completely human that in the end he was the character I most loved.
And now I’m sad about all the stories that never will be told, all the possibilities wasted. MD could be great I would not care because this isn’t anymore Torchwood. It’s just another show with characters I no longer know.
But I still can hope
N’est pas mort ce qui semble à jamais dormir et en d’étranges éternités la Mort même peut mourir.
Awix
January 13, 2011 at 6:19 pm
(Spoilers, not that I suspect most people will care…)
Y’know… I’m starting to think the premise for Miracle Day is Rusty making a sort of ironic response to the way the hardcore fans reacted to Ianto dying and the ‘it’s SF, nobody ever needs to permanently die’ line many of them are taking.
Miracle Day is about a world where no-one ever dies and what a disaster that turns out to be. And *writing* about somewhere like that would be a nightmare – if all deaths were potentially reversible, then none of them could have any real meaning or impact. It’d be like a comic book universe, where characters are always undergoing miraculous resurrections and death has effectively become meaningless.
If Ianto can come back from the dead (hey, it’s SF, why not?), then what about Toshiko? (Hey, it’s SF, why not?) Or Owen? (Hey, it’s SF, why not?) What if Lisa came back to life and she and Ianto got back together? (Hey, it’s SF, why not?)
There are dozens of characters you could make a case for resurrecting, but it would ruin the tone of the series – and the part of the point of killing Ianto off was because when someone who’s young and a good person and still has their life ahead of them, it is a tragedy and people should be upset, and our stories should acknowledge that fact. Introducing someone new just to kill them off wouldn’t have had the same impact (no-one’s started a shrine to Rupesh, as far as I know) and it would just be baldly obviously manipulative writing.
(Let’s see how many ‘thumbs down’ I can accumulate in the course of a single thread… 😉 )
Syl
January 13, 2011 at 6:40 pm
Perhaps because his death was meaningless ? In an early script Stephen stayed alive. But Ianto was “always” killed. So that can’t be the reason. And how many characters they think they have to kill to make us believe the “die young” thing?. I think the death of Tosh and Owen were enough and made that clear. RTD clearly “overplayed” here. And for me, yes I hope they will bring him back, because in the first place it was wrong to kill him. My opinion.
And if you think other characters need to come back also , why not start a “Bringbackallthedeadcharacters” campaign?
Jips
January 13, 2011 at 7:55 pm
Bringing the death cheapen what exactly and ruin the tone of the serie how exactly? Suzie was brough back to life, didn’t that ruin already the tone of the serie? Owen was brough back to life (someway), didn’t that ruin the serie? And Jack was brough back hundred of time, didn’t that ruin the tone of the serie already? And what about Rhys in series 1? Did that ruin the tone too? I believe not, since they got the attention to bring the show to BBC 1.
Owen and Tosh die to save a city, it’s heroic for me. Ianto die for what? Broken Jack? The Torchwood past didn’t show that. There is plenty good example what Jack can do.
Ianto was throw to the garbage. That’s all. Sorry but I don’t believe the reason they give. I also feel the same way as Syl, I don’t see anymore Jack like a hero.
COE got to many plot holes to be taken seriously in a darker way and “realistic”. Where is the Doctor? Why suddenly the government want to destroyed the only organization able to save them? And please, there is plenty of example then the risen mitten to bring a death character. Hey they can bring back Owen and Tosh, I really don’t mind. It’s sci-fi and I do love sci-fi.
I not see Ianto as the little shag man for Jack, I see much more in him. I don’t love Ianto because he was with Jack, I love him becuase he is Ianto and got the qualities I found amazing in a character.
About the people immortality, plenty of stories told this. It’s really not the first time. So if people can’t die, why the death stay dead then? I am ready to bed all those people who were suppose to die will die in the end when they will solve the problem. Like Death take a Holiday in Suparnatural series 4. So if bringing the deaths is not fine, why people immortality should be fine then? It’s just the other way when you think about it.
I didn’t cry when Ianto die, I was just beginning to wonder what I was just watching. It’s like you go to the supermarket without money that scene. They didn’t act like “Torchwood is ready” when we were told so much.
rogue time agent
January 13, 2011 at 10:23 pm
RTD has (once again) said that this is a story he’s had in the back of his mind that he has always wanted to do. So no, I don’t think it’s some childish rant at fans.
There are plenty of characters that have died in the Torchwood world. We’re not asking for everyone. Just Ianto. If everyone believes that RTD is such a terrific writer, can’t he find a believable way to bring him back?
The different between Rupesh and Ianto is that Rupesh is a new character and Ianto is an established character. Rupesh death still made an impact because everyone thought he was a good guy and was to be the new doctor. His death did have an impact in that way. Stephen was the same way. His death was shocking (and majorly disgusting and unnecessary in my book) because he was a child but we only ‘knew’ him for four hours.
Nobody is saying that just because it’s SF, nobody ever needs to die. There is ways to have drama and the impact of death without killing a fairly popular established character.
kirri
February 2, 2011 at 12:46 pm
So, you missed the episode where Owen came back from the dead, then?
Awix
February 2, 2011 at 1:56 pm
So, you missed the fact he was a zombie?
Owen only died *because* they wanted to turn him into a zombie. it wasn’t like the original plan was to kill him off at the end of ‘Reset’ but they changed their minds at the last minute.
‘What shall we do? Rewrite the end of Reset do he doesn’t die?!?’
‘No, let’s turn him into a zombie, write two episodes just about him being dead, and then make it a running theme for the rest of the series. That’s much easier.’
To repeat: he only died in the first place because they wanted to do the zombie storyline.
None of the other TW resurrections has been because they originally wanted to kill a character off and then changed their minds months or years later, so I don’t think you can really compare them to what it would mean to resurrect Ianto.
blucougar
February 3, 2011 at 12:29 am
I think you might find that most TW fans who liked Ianto are willing to accept his demise, even if it was badly written. (I doubt it occurred to RTD that Owen and Tosh’s deaths were more readily accepted because the circumstances were not pointless, like in CoE)
What angers most of us is the fact that we’re being told on the one hand that Torchwood is dangerous and no one is safe; but on the other hand, we’re being told that “Gwen is Snow White, and you don’t kill Snow White”. Either RTD’s words or Julie Gardner’s – one or the other.
We can deal with the death of a beloved character. What many of us despise is RTD’s gross hypocrisy, and then thumbing his nose at the fans and telling us our opinions are worthless.
Gwen, out of all the characters in Torchwood, should have had a fatal accident very early on. You can’t dictate that no character is protected, only to then coat one character in particular in teflon and have her be untouchable.
Awix
February 3, 2011 at 4:09 am
Well, it does occur to me that if they’d stuck to the original plan and vaporised Ianto at the end of series 2, and it had been Owen who’d died in CoE, we wouldn’t be having this kind of discussion now.
I agree that Gwen is one of those annoyingly idealised Rusty Davies heroines, and the way we’re expected to think about her doesn’t tally with the way she behaves on screen (though I wouldn’t go so far as to be quite as negative as in some of the comments further down the page – she does have *some* good points).
(I wonder if you’re allowed to like Gwen AND Ianto? I think I may only ever have met one person who does.)
I’m coming to this as a Doctor Who fan; if Torchwood wasn’t set in the same continuity I’d have cut it a lot less slack and probably followed it less closely. I know RTD’s writing can be repetitive and occasionally slightly incoherent, and his heroines appealing to nobody but him. I know he often doesn’t seem to notice when he’s contradicting himself. Coming from a fan background himself, he seems to feel the need to demonstrate he’s not in thrall to fan opinion – which he does by sometimes dismissing fan concerns more harshly than he needs to.
But… he oversaw the DW revival, he created Torchwood, along with all the characters (GDL didn’t just sneak onto the set and improvise his character). Give the guy at least *some* credit.
S & B
July 15, 2011 at 10:23 am
I agree with the whole “you don’t kill Snow White” thing- it’s just that, to me SW is Ianto! 🙂
Awix
January 14, 2011 at 4:08 am
I wasn’t seriously suggesting the MD premise is a comment on the Resurrect Ianto lobby, but it’s an odd coincidence. Neither do I think that every single character who’s ever died in Torchwood should be resurrected, that would be ludicrous (that’s the point I was making).
Let me make a parallel with Rusty’s writing elsewhere. (It’s from DW, but that’s because he hasn’t written much TW.) When he writes Rose out he makes a huge deal out of the fact that she CANNOT return from the parallel universe and will NEVER EVER see the Doctor again. And the story had a certain impact for a lot of people at the time (not me, I don’t like Rose).
But I’m prepared to bet that anyone watching Doomsday now won’t be as moved by it, simply because – hey, it later turned out she COULD get out and DID see the Doctor again! If you undo the events of a story – particularly key events depicted at the time as irreversible – then you ruin the original story.
‘Yeah, but Children of Earth is a terrible story in the first place. Ianto’s death is meaningless.’
a) I disagree (my opinion, anyway). And it’s certainly no worse than a lot of the first season. You can ask ‘Where’s the Doctor?’ about any TW or SJA episode. The story makes it clear why they’re trying to kill Jack.
b) Even if Ianto’s death is meaningless – and I disagree – sometimes people do die meaningless and ugly deaths, even the young and pretty ones. Stories should reflect that, shouldn’t they?
c) One possible meaning of Ianto’s death: CoE is about Jack’s overconfidence and its consequences – he makes a terrible misjudgement in 1965 and the main events of the story are how this comes back to destroy his life. And part of this is losing Ianto (again, partly due to his overconfidence in his ability to deal with the 456). Ianto’s death is really part of Jack’s punishment for what he did in the sixties – not fair on Ianto, sure, but c’est la vie (if you see what I mean).
Rusty’s also argued – coherently, in my opinion – that had Ianto not died Jack wouldn’t have been in the right place mentally and emotionally to contemplate doing what he does in the climax of the story.
So you could say – though I suspect no-one else here will want to – that Ianto’s death, far from being meaningless, is actually the key and central event of the story.
Jips
January 14, 2011 at 2:56 pm
Honestly, I disagree.
COE was a worwide event where all the countries give children to the UK without know why becuase UK hide the 456. The story is big and affect all the world, shouldn’t the Doctor do something about that like the episode “Stolen Earth” in Doctor Who?
Torchwood COE wasn’t about how kill Jack, it was about all kill Torchwood. They destroyed the Hub, stole the SUV, killed the buthler, destroyed the aliens technologies, killed Janet the Weevil, the morgue, everything. Torchwood is about a team protecting the Earth from aliens treats. Not about how many ideas I got to kill Jack.
“b) Even if Ianto’s death is meaningless – and I disagree – sometimes people do die meaningless and ugly deaths, even the young and pretty ones. Stories should reflect that, shouldn’t they?”
The point is not because Ianto is cute he cannot be killed, the point is whatever the reason they killed, they showed Torchwood Jack and Ianto like a bunch of idiots who can’t deal with a three heads vomiting thing. Even myself will not go to the chamber without protection or you know … a plan!
“Rusty’s also argued – coherently, in my opinion – that had Ianto not died Jack wouldn’t have been in the right place mentally and emotionally to contemplate doing what he does in the climax of the story.”
Ianto had to die to clear the field. End. Jack is perfectly able to kill whoever he want to save many people. Do you really think they will mentionned Ianto in TWMD or we will see just a minute of Jack mentionning what he lost before finding a new toy to play until Gwen come kiss him?
“One possible meaning of Ianto’s death: CoE is about Jack’s overconfidence and its consequences”
COE is about a remix of Quatermass movie and kill the most. I only watched COE once and didn’t want to touch it anymore and what I do see is COE was about a government who want to give children to the big bad 456. The government gut more screen time than Jack. Gwen is fully happy with a baby, with her husband, without a single scratch. Ianto die, Jack leave Earth because as I quote “there nothing left for me here” and the next time we saw Jack, he flirt with Alonsy. So where exactly Jack is broken as some told me so much? There no screen time showing that except you count the 5 seconds he was drinking. He’s ready to fight an army of Weevils to save Owen, a friend, but a lover who die because he believed in Jack no plan, no Jack can’t save him and now death is cheapen something and ruin the tone of the serie when the leader is immortal and everyone now is immortal. Sorry I don’t understand and cannot share that opinion.
Awix
January 14, 2011 at 4:28 pm
Are you saying that Rusty wrote CoE *specifically* to kill off Torchwood (the old format Torchwood, I mean)? Why would he bother? He’s a big name writer, if he wanted to write a standalone SF thriller a UK network would have jumped at the chance. In fact, it would probably have had a better profile and budget had it not been associated with what’s essentially a minority-channel cult show.
I believe that in an interview Rusty explained the thinking behind blowing up the hub and losing the SUV – basically it was to take the characters out of their comfort zone and show that even without all the gadgets and resources they were still incredibly capable and determined individuals.
If you argue that the Doctor should turn up *every single time* a global threat kicks off in Who-world, then you could equally well argue he should appear on a regular basis in SJA and TW – and where was he (will he be) in 2164 when the Daleks invaded (will invade)? Sometimes it’s more about telling a good story than absolute gritty realism. (Oh good grief.) I mean, logical rigour, not gritty realism.
“they showed Torchwood Jack and Ianto like a bunch of idiots who can’t deal with a three heads vomiting thing” – the overconfidence thing. Jack in particular – if you can’t die you’re bound to get sloppy – and Ianto for running in blindly behind him. The 456 are a bit more than just a ‘three headed vomiting thing’ – the story shows they’re clearly a fantastically advanced species.
You clearly have different ideas about motivation than me (and in some ways a lower opinion of Jack). They referred to Toshiko and Owen in DW and CoE, and I can’t imagine Ianto won’t be referred to in MD. I’m sure someone will mention it on the net when it happens so all the TW fans who’ve stopped watching TW will be able to track down the clip on Youtube…
There’s one element in common between CoE and the final Quatermass story. The political element of CoE (which is one of my favourite parts of the story) is new.
It’s not made clear how long elapses between the end of CoE and Jack’s appearance in End of Time – even if it’s just ‘real time’ (TW/DW chronology is a bit of a nightmare) then it’s five months, could be much longer. And when we first see him he’s still clearly going through it (if you look at his face you can sort of tell what he’s feeling).
“now death is cheapen something and ruin the tone of the serie when the leader is immortal and everyone now is immortal”
Not entirely sure what you mean here. Sorry. Anyway, you seem to be treating CoE as a vicious attack on the characters of the series made by people who utterly hate them – but the lead writer is the same man who created the series you clearly love so much. Do you really think Rusty started to hate the TW characters? Why do you think he even went back to the series if he hated it that much?
Chrys
January 14, 2011 at 5:22 pm
“Are you saying that Rusty wrote CoE *specifically* to kill off Torchwood (the old format Torchwood, I mean)?”
Yes.
“Why would he bother?”
Because the show had taken a different direction from the one he had planned for it, and it wasn’t the show he wanted to write, which was about Eve Myles playing an alien hunting character. He wanted to write “Excalibur”, not Torchwood. And no one would buy it, so he decided to ruin Torchwood so he could write it.
Jips
January 14, 2011 at 5:42 pm
they refer Tosh and Owen by a picture on Gwen desk we seen 3 seconds. I don’t call that reference. RTD also clearly state that the new audience don’t need to know Torchwood past to watch MD. Do you think they will bother to mention who is Ianto or see a tiny little grief of Jack?
I am not arguing RTD should come back to every single time the Earth is in danger, I am arguing why.. no.. HOW Doctor Who can let a dangerous specie like the 456 coming in Earth for the second time to want children. Isn’t the Earth is suppose to be protect by him, something said in Doctor Who series I believed it was in season 2. The 456 was suppose to be dangerous, extremely powerful, to put all the world in great danger. However, the only thing we saw is instead to fight they built a wonderful chamber. Honestly, the only thing missing is chips and pepsi.
RTD can come up with wonderful ideas, however since two years he disapoint me in his ideas who seem to be recycle. It’s not for no respect, it just my opinion and perceptive about what he wrote since a while just like MD where I do not think the idea is new and original.
Yes you clearly got my point that I don’t see anymore Jack like a hero. We know he deal with the 456 in 1965 but didn’t anticipate the 456 will maybe, just maybe, come back for more. He didn’t prepare his team like a leader should do. He send Ianto to the wolf when he know he’s the only one who can’t die. Gwen cannot go because she’s pregnant. The only reason I accept Ianto follow Jack is because he’s blind by love. However, I will never send my lover fight the danger especially if I be an immortal and we don’t have plan neither be prepare.
I agree about your motivation point, but I do think they are able to come to protect themself before fight. I motivate to work at my job, however I do not give results to my boss without facts or be sure of myself. In Animal Park novel, Ianto is refer to Mr. Safety First by Jack because Ianto always think to secure the team and him before go fight the danger. They didn’t in COE. Where was the time loop we seen in Doctor Who stolen Earth when the Hub is in danger the time stop inside? Jack didn’t even sense a bomb inside is stomatch. The bomb got the size of a football ball. He didn’t even think that to be killed twice by the same agent and wake up alone maybe something was wrong. Instead, he return to the Hub.
Russel T Davies write Torchwood episode 1 season 1. He write COE. Please don’t accuse me to treating COE as a vicious attack about the characters neither I do hate the writers. I dislike COE for an unbeliveavle list of reasons. Gwen was show as heroic in COE, how is this a vicious attack to the character? Ianto is show as a “gayboy” who need to die. Jack is show as an empty sell. I do love, no I loved Torchwood until the show change completely where I do think they lose a great potential in my opinion.
As for someone who lost his family, I can tell you that I still think about them even after 5 years.
“Do you really think Rusty started to hate the TW characters? Why do you think he even went back to the series if he hated it that much?”
RTD told many times in media that COE was that he got an idea and say, well that fit for a Torchwood story. COE was suppose to be the end, it take one year before we suddenly know they got another go where he state again I got an idea and I think it will fit for Torchwood.
I do think RTD love very much Gwen. Why do I think he continue Torchwood? Well why not use a show who was popular? I am wrong but there is no more Rift, no SUV, no pterodactyl, almost no more Cardiff. We just got Gwen we know almost everything about her and Jack with a new shiny american team.
To conclude, there is much more then one element with Quatermass and COE.
And that is the way I see this.
Chrys
January 14, 2011 at 5:19 pm
Ianto’s death was meaningless AND out of character. It’s the out of character that annoys me more.
As far as Jack not being in a place where he coudl sacrifice Stephen? Heard it before, and sorry, it’s not something I buy. Jack has already shown that in a situation like that, he can and will make the hard choices. One child to save the world? He already did that. He can do it again – yes, it will hurt. But that’s what heroes are for.
Being able to kill Stephen just because Ianto was dead? Give me a break.
Awix
January 14, 2011 at 6:59 pm
“He wanted to write “Excalibur”, not Torchwood. And no one would buy it, so he decided to ruin Torchwood so he could write it.”
(The office of the commissioning editor of ITV/Channel 4/Sky. Enter RTD.)
RTD: ‘Hi, I’ve got an idea for a TV show called Excalibur…’
Editor: ‘Why in hell should I listen to any of your ideas?’
RTD: ‘Well, because I’m a high profile award-winning writer whose work generally receives massive popular and critical success. I revived Dr Who, which kick-started the current cycle for mass-appeal fantasy adventure series like Robin Hood, Camelot and Primeval, and did I mention that Excalibur is another show in that genre? If I write a show it’s guaranteed press coverage, too.’
Editor: ‘Get out of my sight! You must be insane.’
RTD: (thinks) ‘Damn. It’s all the fault of those Torchwood characters I created! Grrr! Will they be sorry when I get through with them!’
“they refer Tosh and Owen by a picture on Gwen desk we seen 3 seconds. I don’t call that reference.”
Most people (including the ones who write dictionaries) would do. By reference I expect you mean ‘long angsty irrelevent-to-current-plot scene where the characters discuss past events for no particular reason’. In my family we’ve lost people recently too, and we also think about them, but we very rarely discuss it even with each other. It’s part of the process of grieving and moving on.
“RTD also clearly state that the new audience don’t need to know Torchwood past to watch MD. Do you think they will bother to mention who is Ianto or see a tiny little grief of Jack?”
I think they’ll mention it a little, for the old fans who’ll have stuck with the show. But it’s not a serial or a soap opera – if a series doesn’t keep getting new viewers it’ll fail, and that means they can’t keep referring back to previous series and characters. Doctor Who did exactly that in the 80s which is one of the reasons it fell off the screen for fifteen years.
“Isn’t the Earth is suppose to be protected by [the Doctor], something said in Doctor Who series I believed it was in season 2.”
Supposedly. It’s not his full-time job and things happen when he’s not there – The Stolen Earth has dialogue about this. Wouldn’t you say a fifty-foot life-devouring demon devastating a major city counts as a serious situation? Are you therefore going to criticise End of Days because the Doctor doesn’t turn up? Or Sleeper, where a full-scale alien invasion nearly takes place?
“The 456 was suppose to be dangerous, extremely powerful, to put all the world in great danger. However, the only thing we saw is instead to fight they built a wonderful chamber”
I thought the humans built the chamber for the 456… the 456 appeared to have powers of limited mind-control over every child on Earth, teleportation abilities over great distances, and so on. They didn’t need to ‘fight’ any more than humans ‘fight’ ants or flies that annoy them.
“Ianto always think to secure the team and him before go fight the danger. They didn’t in COE.”
Haven’t seen CoE for a bit but I recall they’re desperately short of resources and prep time at that point – besides which you assume that they’re magically aware of the capabilities of the 456. Prior to the start of that story nobody on Earth has any real knowledge of them besides their favourite radio frequency.
“Where was the time loop we seen in Doctor Who stolen Earth when the Hub is in danger the time stop inside?”
The time lock in that episode suspends anything trying to break into the hub from outside. There’s no reason why it should be triggered by a bomb going off inside. That’d be like expecting your burglar alarm to put out a fire inside your house.
“Jack didn’t even sense a bomb inside is stomatch. The bomb got the size of a football ball.”
Some women give birth without ever realising they were pregnant. As you point out, he was in a weird situation and probably unlikely to be bothered by (what he might have thought was just) a bellyache.
“He didn’t even think that to be killed twice by the same agent and wake up alone maybe something was wrong. Instead, he return to the Hub.”
Well, he leads a weird life. Once again you give him magic powers of precognition if you expect him to realise he’s had a bomb implanted. Unless you think standard TW procedure is ‘if anything weird happens to you, for God’s sake stay away from base and the rest of the team.’
“Russel T Davies write Torchwood episode 1 season 1. He write COE. Please don’t accuse me to treating COE as a vicious attack about the characters neither I do hate the writers. I dislike COE for an unbeliveavle list of reasons. Gwen was show as heroic in COE, how is this a vicious attack to the character?”
Someone here, not you Jips, *has* said that they see the main purpose of CoE as being to ‘kill’ the original Torchwood format. Many people have complained that everyone acts out-of-character in CoE. I don’t see either myself.
“Ianto is show as a “gayboy” ” –
No, he’s *called* a gayboy by another character. If you think that’s Rusty’s own opinion, you’re calling him a homophobe. RTD has also written characters who wanted to annihilate the entire universe. Does that mean RTD is a nihilistic psychopath? (Hang on, don’t answer that – some of you guys probably think he is. ;))
– “who need to die”
No, not someone who ‘had’ to die, but someone who did die, because Jack – under some pressure – made a(nother) terrible mistake.
“I do think RTD love very much Gwen.” Hey, that’s not right… we’re agreeing about something… No, I’m not impressed with the way she’s written either.
“To conclude, there is much more then one element with Quatermass and COE.” Well, there’s a mysterious alien force that abducts children/young people… could you tell me what the others were, please?
“Ianto’s death was meaningless AND out of character.”
Well, I (and others) would politely disagree about the former, and I presume by the latter you’re referring to the ‘safety first’ element of the character, which I’ve already mentioned. Or is there something else?
“As far as Jack not being in a place where he coudl sacrifice Stephen? Heard it before, and sorry, it’s not something I buy… Being able to kill Stephen just because Ianto was dead? Give me a break.”
Luckily, it’s not a compulsory purchase. Look, at the end of CoE we see Jack as deeply flawed but not unsympathetic character. He’s made mistakes and as a result he’s suffered great losses and had to make terrible choices. He’s not the shiny hero (and while I expect some people hate that, I don’t have a problem with it).
Imagine if CoE had played out differently with the sole exception being that Ianto didn’t die in day four – he put on a hazmat suit or whatever. So the ending becomes Jack, Ianto and Gwen looking on gravely as Jack’s daughter weeps over the corpse of his grandson. What reason does the audience have not to hate Jack’s guts? Sure, he had no choice, but he hasn’t suffered a loss as personal and piercing as his daughter’s. And now he and his boyfriend get to walk away together? What an undeserving bastard!
You can argue that CoE was fundamentally misconceived – come to think of it, that’s what everyone’s been doing all week – in trying to do something new with Jack’s character, but in my opinion (there’s that word again) it was a brave attempt to give him a bit of depth.
As ever I look forward to your responses. The button you want is the one with the thumb pointing down… 😉
Jips
January 14, 2011 at 7:35 pm
“Most people (including the ones who write dictionaries) would do. By reference I expect you mean ‘long angsty irrelevent-to-current-plot scene where the characters discuss past events for no particular reason’. In my family we’ve lost people recently too, and we also think about them, but we very rarely discuss it even with each other. It’s part of the process of grieving and moving on.”
Are you saying that we shouldn’t talk about the past, if not we not process the grief form and moving on… I still talk about the past which can give some good discussion and good memories.
“Most people (including the ones who write dictionaries)”
Really?
“I think they’ll mention it a little, for the old fans who’ll have stuck with the show. But it’s not a serial or a soap opera – if a series doesn’t keep getting new viewers it’ll fail, and that means they can’t keep referring back to previous series and characters”
You mean like they did with Tosh and Owen by showing a little picture when someone can believe it’s just some friends still alive?
“Jack didn’t even sense a bomb inside is stomatch. The bomb got the size of a football ball.”
“Some women give birth without ever realising they were pregnant. As you point out, he was in a weird situation and probably unlikely to be bothered by (what he might have thought was just) a bellyache.”
Please… he was killed twice. Okay, he wake up, suddenly feel something in his stomach and feel it’s a bellyache? Agents shoot him, wake up alone, and feel something in his stomatch. Bellyache? No I cannot believe he will think that.
“No, he’s *called* a gayboy by another character. If you think that’s Rusty’s own opinion, you’re calling him a homophobe. RTD has also written characters who wanted to annihilate the entire universe”
Smell like queer, gayboy etc. He was pretty smash by the writers in COE. I will not go stating RTD is homophobes but still, they pretty made the point clear that Ianto is now gay and should be smash. That is my perception.
they can do that in series 1-2 but they didn’t, they did it with COE.
“No, not someone who ‘had’ to die, but someone who did die, because Jack – under some pressure – made a(nother) terrible mistake.”
Disagree with you. *Point* at my first comment.
“Wouldn’t you say a fifty-foot life-devouring demon devastating a major city counts as a serious situation? Are you therefore going to criticise End of Days because the Doctor doesn’t turn up? Or Sleeper, where a full-scale alien invasion nearly takes place?”
All what you mentionned happen now, by surprise, and still, withtout involving all the entire world. The 456 happened in 5 days and he was before on Earth in 1965.
“I think they’ll mention it a little, for the old fans who’ll have stuck with the show. But it’s not a serial or a soap opera –”
By killing all the characters except Jack and Gwen? even the favorite ones? didn’t that sound repetitive. Isn’t Stargate got a brilliant success without killing 60% of the casting?
“Luckily, it’s not a compulsory purchase. Look, at the end of CoE we see Jack as deeply flawed but not unsympathetic character. He’s made mistakes and as a result he’s suffered great losses and had to make terrible choices.”
But Jack sacrifice before! Jasmine, 12 children. His brother kill Tosh. the lost of Estelle etc. About Ianto, no there is no reason. Emotional shocking value to upset audience, I can agree, but not for Jack.
“Ianto’s death was meaningless AND out of character.”
“Well, I (and others) would politely disagree about the former, and I presume by the latter you’re referring to the ‘safety first’ element of the character, which I’ve already mentioned. Or is there something else?”
I (and others) will agree that the story is out of character. Mr Safety First is in Animal Park, Ianto bring a cyberwoman in the Hub without anyone notice. He survive Canary Warf and then come COE when we see Ianto walk give a chat with the 456. It didn’t made sense, not to me.
“Imagine if CoE had played out differently with the sole exception being that Ianto didn’t die in day four – he put on a hazmat suit or whatever. So the ending becomes Jack, Ianto and Gwen looking on gravely as Jack’s daughter weeps over the corpse of his grandson. What reason does the audience have not to hate Jack’s guts? Sure, he had no choice, but he hasn’t suffered a loss as personal and piercing as his daughter’s. And now he and his boyfriend get to walk away together? What an undeserving bastard!”
What about Jack sacrifice Steven, Ianto cannot face it, leave Jack and Torchwood? or what about instead of Ianto it was Gwen with Jack in that room? Why Ianto alive would change all the script if he didn’t die? Didn’t kill a child push someone to hate Jack?
I mean to follow your comments, you seem to relate Torchwood and COE completely to Jack alone (which is fine), but I am sorry but killing all the characters to prooving the world is badly evil just don’t fit to me. We can argue that if resurrecting death cheap the drama but the thing is if it will be true, you will consider Torchwood serie 1 already ruin when they brough back Suzie or Jack immortality.
I adore Ianto for Ianto, not because he was with Jack. I’m not pointing the thumb down, however, I cannot agree with you if I don’t feel the same way as you do. would love to point the thumb up, but I am not able to do it.
Jips
January 14, 2011 at 7:47 pm
I forgot to add, even if I disagree with you Awix it was interesting to discuss the subject with you 🙂
(and sorry for all the grammatical errors, *hide behind a rock*)
Awix
January 15, 2011 at 5:03 am
No worries, Jips (wasn’t going to say anything, and please don’t be offended if I’m wrong, but I get the impression English isn’t your first language). I’m enjoying this as well.
Anyway… selected highlights…
“Are you saying that we shouldn’t talk about the past, if not we not process the grief form and moving on… I still talk about the past which can give some good discussion and good memories.”
Yes, me too, but not all the time and not without a good reason to do it.
” “Most people (including the ones who write dictionaries)”
Really?”
I was being snarky there. Sorry. Basically, ‘reference = noun, a mention or allusion.’ (From dictionary.reference.com.) Tosh and Owen are mentioned in Stolen Earth and CoE. If you want reference to mean something different then fine, but you’re starting to speak your own language if you do.
” “I think they’ll mention it a little, for the old fans who’ll have stuck with the show. But it’s not a serial or a soap opera – if a series doesn’t keep getting new viewers it’ll fail, and that means they can’t keep referring back to previous series and characters”
You mean like they did with Tosh and Owen by showing a little picture when someone can believe it’s just some friends still alive?”
Um, exactly right. People who get the reference will know who they are and what it means. It won’t mean anything to new viewers but it doesn’t have to.
Consider that for most of the audience TW isn’t primarily about the emotional lives and relationship issues of the characters, it’s a fantasy adventure series. Long scenes with them constantly talking about people who died the previous year in a group-therapy kind of way would make the fans very happy but bore 95%+ of the audience to the point of switching off. That kind of thing’s the stuff of fanfic -any new story has to be about that story first and foremost. Many of the people who watched CoE would never have seen TW before, and a lengthy scene about Owen and Tosh would have meant nothing to them and been totally irrelevent to the 456 plot.
” Smell like queer, gayboy etc. He was pretty smash by the writers in COE. I will not go stating RTD is homophobes but still, they pretty made the point clear that Ianto is now gay and should be smashed”
Well, then I’m afraid that you *are* suggesting the writers are homophobic. I don’t quite follow the logic when people say that gay characters should be presented realistically and unbiasedly, but that they should also be magically invulnerable to all harm.
About the bomb in the stomach thing… given medical texbooks are full of cases of people walking around with odd things inside them for years, and given that the people responsible had a load of high-tech gear (laser scalpel, the bomb itself) I’m prepared to buy that they anaesthetised Jack’s gut or something. There are many equally dubious plot developments in earlier TW episodes that nobody makes any mention of.
The real reason why the Doctor doesn’t turn up in CoE is because it would kill the story if he did. Four days of build-up and drama and then someone appears literally out of thin air and sorts it all out while the TW characters stand around and watch.
If you want an in-universe reason why he’s not there… well, he doesn’t live on Earth. Some times he goes years (Earth-time) without visiting. Or, to be more specific, there’s already a DW plot-device where sometimes he’s not allowed to get involved – ‘fixed points’ in history where he can’t interfere. Maybe the events of CoE were one of these. (The one time he does try to change a fixed point it ends horribly and he realises it was a terrible mistake.)
“But Jack sacrifice before! Jasmine, 12 children. His brother kill Tosh. the lost of Estelle etc. About Ianto, no there is no reason. Emotional shocking value to upset audience, I can agree, but not for Jack.”
With the exception of Tosh, I believe all of those characters were written in-and-out in a single story – which many people watching CoE might not have seen or might have forgotten about. The writers are thinking about the wider audience.
Are you saying that writers shouldn’t be allowed to kill popular characters? As you said, it was a great shock for the audience, an emotional moment for many of them. Isn’t that what stories are about?
I expect you’re going to repeat that his death was meaningless (which we’ve already discussed) or that the way in which he goes to his death is out-of-character (also already discussed)…
“you seem to relate Torchwood and COE completely to Jack alone”
Well, he *is* the main character. The show was promoted as ‘a new vehicle for Captain Jack’. And as I’ve said I think part of the intent of CoE was to explore some darker elements of Jack as a person.
I appreciate Ianto was your favourite character, but that doesn’t mean the show is about him. He’s a minor character when he first appears and even after that he’s defined mainly by his relationship with Jack.
Here’s my thesis: fans of TW series 1 & 2 who hate CoE do so partly because it doesn’t continue in the same format but mainly because it kills their favourite character.
I’m not saying CoE is perfect, or that it doesn’t have unlikely moments or holes in the plot. But you can say exactly the same about the earlier seasons and they don’t receive nearly as much criticism for them.
I think CoE was a commendable attempt to use the TW name to tell a different type of story, though one still focussed on the (surviving) core characters. I think it’s a more mature show than the first two seasons were, as well.
It seems to me that TW fans love the show because of things that most people watching it (the wider audience) wouldn’t really care that much about. CoE’s problem is that it’s written almost exclusively for the wider audience, not for the fans. You can argue that RTD’s betraying old-TW fans by doing so, and I wouldn’t necessarily argue with you…
Having said that, I can’t imagine series 3 being successful, even had RTD managed to persuade the BBC to give him the money to make another full 13 episodes in the style of series 1 and 2. Wider audience still not sold on the inconsistency and self-conscious cultiness of many episodes and fans complaining that new characters pale imitations of Owen and Tosh, etc…
Jips
January 15, 2011 at 6:34 am
I’m Québécois, I’m not so good with the English writing but I do try my best so you don’t hurt my feelings haha 😉
“Yes, me too, but not all the time and not without a good reason to do it.”
Oh I agree, not all the time, the important is still enjoy the life but I do still think about them.
“Um, exactly right. People who get the reference will know who they are and what it means. It won’t mean anything to new viewers but it doesn’t have to.”
Well by doing that I think they missed some continuation and a good proof that Ianto death indeed hurt pretty much Jack like they want we believe.
Afterall, we clearly saw the grief of Willow when she lose Tara in Buffy or when Sam lose his girlfriend in Supernatural season 1.
“Consider that for most of the audience TW isn’t primarily about the emotional lives and relationship issues of the characters, it’s a fantasy adventure series”
Except about Gwen we the screen “extremely” showing her relationship. Except in COE when we are showed Jack and Alice relation (dad and dauther). I didn’t want Jack and Ianto to be married for example. There relationship was fine but I can deal without this.
Yes I agree with the fantasy, but COE was as they state a “serious” “realistic” drama where all the background was put behind and blow up to let place to the government.
“I expect you’re going to repeat that his death was meaningless (which we’ve already discussed) or that the way in which he goes to his death is out-of-character (also already discussed)…”
Well we only have to agree or disagree about the death.
“Well, then I’m afraid that you *are* suggesting the writers are homophobic. I don’t quite follow the logic when people say that gay characters should be presented realistically and unbiasedly, but that they should also be magically invulnerable to all harm.”
No you are suggesting that I point the writer homophobic. I simply state that Torchwood series 1-2 didn’t got “issues” with the same sex relationship like langage we heard in COE. Okay then, why not the writers smash Jack sexuality in COE? For what I watched, it’s Ianto who got the threatement when like he state “it’s just him.
“you seem to relate Torchwood and COE completely to Jack alone”
Well, he *is* the main character. The show was promoted as ‘a new vehicle for Captain Jack’. And as I’ve said I think part of the intent of CoE was to explore some darker elements of Jack as a person.”
Yes I could agree if I forgot all the Frobisher scene story, the “evil” government with no security protocole they followed, if I forgot all the Gwen moralities speech and only think of Jack, Jack’s family and the 456.
“I appreciate Ianto was your favourite character, but that doesn’t mean the show is about him. He’s a minor character when he first appears and even after that he’s defined mainly by his relationship with Jack.”
Yes Ianto was my favorite character but I didn’t state the show was about him. He was a minor character when he first appears in series 1, he become extremely popular. He built a relationship with Jack which we don’t really know too much about it. By example: Why Ianto want to be with Jack? When that happened? How after he treat to kill him we suddenly learn they do something together? Like let’s compared what we know about Gwen and Rhys versus Jack and Ianto? And no, Torchwood wasn’t just all about Jack&Ianto relationship. Many folks relate more to Ianto than Jack. Many fans want to learn more about Ianto which it didn’t happened, just that daddy push Ianto to hard, broke his leg, Ianto and his lovely sister and his father is not a master tailor. End. This is the story about Ianto Jones who need to die because he take the error to shag Jack, because if it wasn’t the man who shag Jack (if I follow your opinion), he will not die in COE. For a “minor” character who he’s death create such a reaction, he’s pretty good don’t you think?
“Here’s my thesis: fans of TW series 1 & 2 who hate CoE do so partly because it doesn’t continue in the same format but mainly because it kills their favourite character.”
Here my thesis about me: I hate COE because it got so many plot holes it just give me a headache. I hate COE because it wasn’t Torchwood. I hate COE because everything simply blow up in day 1. I hate COE because I don’t believe all the countries will give children to UK without know why. I dislike COE because I think Jack and Ianto was portray as idiots Like the ten times Jack die in only 5 days and some of them are just what?. I dislike COE because I found the 456 just hilarious to treats to kill everyone if he don’t get what he need. But if it kill the world, what he going to do next for taking some children? I dislike Ianto death because I cannot believed Ianto, the one who was in charge of the security before, can go to that basement without plan. I dislike Ianto death because the only reason I should believe is to push Jack to kill his grandson because if not, thousands of children will die. But he did sacrifice before without the need Ianto die, but now I should believe yes it should because it say so. It will be a good drama, if it was actually a complete different show, just not Torchwood.
“I’m not saying CoE is perfect, or that it doesn’t have unlikely moments or holes in the plot. But you can say exactly the same about the earlier seasons and they don’t receive nearly as much criticism for them.”
Series 1-2 was sci-fi. COE was portray and promote after the first diffusion as this is dark, “serious” and realistic. So yes I do not care about the plot holes in series 1-2 because there is lest plot holes in series 1-2 reunite together compared to a 5 hours show and by the same time, series 1-2 was promote as a dark show but not serious and realistic.
So to conclude, all the new team members in series 4 should die. Take back Jack immortality and kill him for the drama in the end. So by then, the wider audience will be satisfy in series 4. No? I’m pretty sure the writers will be fine with Gwen alone. And what is fun to see Jack suffer over and over again? Didn’t you want something good for him, for once? Didn’t we alrealy know that he lose many people he care and love in only 2 seasons? And yes, I do agree with you that RTD didn’t write for the fan, COE is a pretty good example.
“I can’t imagine series 3 being successful, even had RTD managed to persuade the BBC to give him the money to make another full 13 episodes in the style of series 1 and 2.”
After COE, it take 15 months, I think, before we know Starz take it. Before, BBC commissioned news shows here and there like Sherlock Holmes.
Awix
January 15, 2011 at 11:47 am
I think the comparison with Tara’s death in Buffy is interesting, and it occurred to me as another example of this kind of thing. I really didn’t like the way Willow’s reaction was handled – Willow basically goes nuts and brutally murders someone – someone who was responsible for Tara’s death, but didn’t do it on purpose – but because it’s Willow and she’s such a popular character she gets let off. If in real life someone got drunk and *murdered* the person who *accidentally* killed their partner, they’d be looking at years in prison, whether they were really sorry about it afterwards. But just because Willow’s so popular she isn’t held to the same moral standard as everyone else.
Off on a tangent there, I admit…
Over here CoE was still called SF – it’s got a giant alien in it, amongst other things, you can hardly call it anything else. Are you saying that plotholes are forgiveable in SF but not in drama? I think they’re bad news in any genre.
I don’t think the message of CoE is ‘if you are gay you will die’. You could equally well say it’s ‘if you are a civil servant you will die’. A building full of people died at the same time as Ianto, but everyone forgets about them…
If you are right the new writers will be very annoyed by the fact that – it would appear – Jack doesn’t lose his immortality and die for another five billion years (this is implied in a Dr Who episode, Gridlock), so they can’t kill him off for a while yet…
I’m not saying the wider audience is only satisfied by series where the regulars are always dying, or are all viewers obsessed with darkness and death. But a mainstream audience is going to want different things from a programme than very dedicated fans are and they’re going to judge it in a different way. Most mainstream critics liked CoE a lot more than TW (and Ianto) fans. Do you think they’d overlook meaningless deaths and lots of plot holes?
I’m not sure what the politics are behind the long gap before series 4. I *think* that RTD wanted to try and launch his writing career in the US rather than do another solely-British run of TW. The new series has been in development for over a year (since he finished working on Dr Who, more or less) – I think RTD continued with TW as it’s his most popular work in the States.
Chrys
January 16, 2011 at 5:07 pm
” it’s a fantasy adventure series.”
Yup. Exactly. It waqs a fantasy adventure series. And I loved it. Then it became a realistic political drama – and I deal with enough of those in my day to day life. I don’t watch TV to see “gripping dark stories”. I watch TV for escapism. And that, right there, is why I hated CoE. I hated CoE for the fact that it took my wonderful, quirky, campy show that allowed me to forget the horrors of the world and turned it into something all too reminiscent of those horrors. And while I get that that is exactly what RTD intended to do, I still hated it. The fact that my favorite character was killed during it – yeah, that didn’t help.
But you know what really burned for me was the total dismissiveness and arrogance held and displayed by RTD for the fans who were upset. If he hadn’t done that, I likely would have moved on completely by now, thinking fondly back on the days when Torchwood was something I liked, and totally ignoring what’s happening now. As it is? I’m close to doing that anyway.
It’s not like there’s going to be any real Torchwood coming up in the future, after all.
And FYI, the premise for “Excalibur” was pitched some years before Torchwood existed, and was rejected soundly. It is *drumroll* about a policewoman fighting aliens in Cardiff.
Awix
January 16, 2011 at 6:03 pm
Well, in which case I understand where you’re coming from. Rusty’s attitude to fans who disagree with him is not one of his more endearing characteristics – it was there even before the revived DW hit the screen. Possibly he’s self-conscious about being a fan himself.
FYI, I know all about the prehistory of Excalibur, ta. Bear in mind UK TV commissioners barely went for *any* SF TV programming, no matter the originator or premise, in the 5-10 years prior to 2005. Most commentators didn’t think there was an audience for that kind of show without US-level budgets and production values and any attempt to make one was doomed (junk like Crime Traveller and Invasion Earth didn’t do anything to persuade them otherwise). Even people inside the BBC thought the DW revival was doomed to be a disastrous, embarrassing flop. The failure of Excalibur to get commissioned in that kind of climate is hardly a surprise.
Chrys
January 16, 2011 at 10:45 pm
Excalibur not being commissioned may not be a surprise. But RTD could have pitched it as its own show, after the success of Dr. Who, wouldn’t you think?
kirri
February 2, 2011 at 12:52 pm
But how much better would the drama have been if Ianto had not died and Jack had had to do what he apparently had to do- Ianto being there would not have prevented it being the only way, apparently, of saving the world.
Although, of course, that rather begs the question “If that was the only way of saving the world, what happened to RTD’s normal, hackneyed, tired old Deus ex Machina?”
Awix
February 2, 2011 at 2:13 pm
Well, you’re really talking about rewriting most of the last 90 minutes of the series, which puts us into deeply hypothetical territory.
My feeling is that without Ianto dying, the confrontation between the 456 and Jack in day four would’ve been dropped, as it would’ve resulted in Jack getting a building full of people killed at no personal cost to himself – day four builds up to Jack spectacularly failing to save the day, and Ianto dying puts a face on that for the audience (in addition to being a bit of a shock).
You could argue that ‘well, they could rewrite it so…’ but then all we’re doing is discussing the details of something that didn’t happen. It’s obvious many people think CoE could have been better written, we don’t need to discuss that.
(Though I think it doesn’t matter quite how RTD killed Ianto off, it could have been in the greatest, most witty, most resonant and moving and inventive script in history and we’d still be having this conversation. Feel free to prove me wrong and tell me how he could’ve killed Ianto off that would’ve left you happy.)
I’d take Rusty-bashing a little more seriously if it didn’t come from people who were massive fans of his shows and characters.
Kyl
January 14, 2011 at 12:20 pm
First of all, please excuse all mistakes in grammar and spelling, I’m German and try my best. 😉
Oh my, where to start…
I started watching Torchwood in May 2009 after a friend of mine introduced me to the DW universe.
I knew Jack from DW and I was curious about TW.
Gwen was ok, even if I thought that Jack must be a little mad to invite a woman into his team without knowing anything about her and from the looks of it she was on the bottom of the foodchain in the police, because all she did was serving coffee and doing some damage control at a pub fight and not even that was something she could handle without being injured.
For me she was only a Rookie.
When we first meet Ianto he is just the one who lets Gwen into the hub and I just overlooked him.
His comment about “sexual harrassment” a little later left me giggling on my sofa, but he still was someone in the background, optically he is not the typ of guy I drool after, he just looked like a young man from the neighborhood.
During “Cyberwoman” I got awake-up call concerning Ianto, like everybody else.
I was intrigued, so there was more to this young man than we knew.
He lied, he conned a conman, he had more secrets then a hidden stash of chocolate. He showed us what he was willing to do if he thought the result was worth it.
his singleminded determination to save his girlfriend, even if he must have known that she was beyond help was something I could admire.
In “Countrycide” Ianto showed us that he was willing not only to sacrifice the world for the life of his loved one but that he was willing to sacrifice himself to help Tosh and in that respect the others.
Every single episode we got to see more and more of Ianto and he still was a mystery wrapped in a riddle.
In CoE we finally get to see that he has a family and another mystery is shown.
What happened when his Dad broke his leg?
None of those mysteries were solved and we still wait for some resolutions.
For me, the big mistery that is Ianto Jones was the thing that called me back to my TV, I knew all about Gwen after 2 eps. I knew Jack’s history from DW but Ianto was a unknown and I looked forward to discover more and more about him in the future.
But now he is gone and we will never know.
Gwen on the other hand is boring as hell, there is nothing new to find out about her after 2 episdoes, beside the fact that in “Countrycide” it clearly shows that she never listened to her instructors during her police time, because everybody knows not to stand in front of a closed door, when you do not know who waits behind it.
In Series 2 she is suddenly the one who is in charge while Jack is gione with the Doctor
That was one of the biggest WTF moments in the show.
She was forced down our throats as the one we should relay on and whom we should use as an identification figure.
I’m old enough to decide for myself whom I like and whom I don’t like. I don’t need an mediocre writer like RTd to tell me what I have to think, I can do that since 40 years on my own, thank you.
CoE was nothing I’ve ever expected and it was not the Torchwood I loved.
It was a political drama with the TW characters in supporting roles.
Day 1 and 2 were ok, sometimes I could glimpse a second where it still was the show I loved.
But from Day 3 on it was the Gwen Cooper show and I hated it, Day 4 and 5 were horrible.
The death of Steven in a close-up shot made me sick and my only thought was that there was some sick minds at work here.
I do not need to see a child die a horrible death just got the point accross that it is supposed to be a drama.
You can create great dramas, without killing off the characters people like or killing people off, period.
But this is something RTD will have to learn because his only way to write drama is to kill off people.
I wish MD all the best but it never was and never will be Torchwood.
MD is just another american mystery show like so many others on TV right now.
Even the normal british cast has gone, replaced by glossy gooodlooking american blondes, brunettes and so on.
RIP Torchwood, I’ll stick to S1 and 2 and watch DW and Sherlock for my brit fix.
christina
October 7, 2011 at 5:58 pm
this was beautifully stated! so YES ditto everything you said.
Erica Freeman
January 15, 2011 at 12:37 pm
Ianto Jones was an everyman. Like Donna, he had been a temp, working a bunch of jobs and never sticking with one for long. He didn’t get high marks in school. However, he found himself in Torchwood and he found love, that’s all most of us want out of life: to feel we’re wanted and to have someone to share that with. When he ranted about no one caring about him in “Cyberwoman”, that’s what so many of us had wanted to do at our jobs but we never had the guts. We were able to cheer at his successes: going out on cases, having Jack acknowledge his feelings, saving the day like if he can do that…so can we.
He also happened to be gay, a rarity on tv and a more relatable position than Jack’s omnisexuality.
We loved Tosh and Owen, but when they died, we could go…well, at least we still have Ianto. We put all those remaining egg’s in Mr. Jones’ basket. All that grief and disappointment were able to be deferred because we still had him…and then we didn’t and it all came out. All that extra grief came out because not only did he die but Tosh and Owen were barely mentioned which felt weird because if you lose your colleagues like that, don’t you remember them more than that? Even as time passes, don’t you remember them? Yes, the Doctor Who episode addressed the matter more because it was closer to their deaths but that felt a little cheap to assume everyone had seen that episode and moved on. Plus, compare that with the Doctor Who episode with Jack that doesn’t bother to address why he’s broken-hearted and drinking in an alien bar even though it was established in The Stolen Earth that Jack was in an exclusive relationship with Ianto Jones. Wouldn’t those who only watch Dr Who be confused? Likewise, those who only watch Torchwood would have extra reason for claiming that Tosh and Owen were utterly forgotten quickly.
I also want to add that a Russel T Davies interview in the Torchwood magazine, Issue #17, Oct/Nov 2009, he said:
As a colleague of mine who worked on soap operas used to say: ‘You don’t rape Snow White.’ In other words, you shouldn’t push your central characters to the point where they become the walking wounded.
Isn’t that what Jack was by the end of CoE? How else would you describe how he was in The End of Time, Pt. 2? However, he does say this quote in reference to Gwen which is another reason why many do not like her…apparently, Davies feels she is the central character and not Jack.
Awix
January 15, 2011 at 4:32 pm
Possibly because she’s entirely his character, while a huge amount of Jack apparently came from Steven Moffat, who wrote him first.
Rusty has also said in an interview, regarding how the events of CoE will be referred to in the new series:
“We will deal with it properly, sensibly and intelligently, but at the same time, the most important thing is to move on, as you would want for any of your friends. If your friend had suffered through a terrible time, you don’t want to be the friend who sits there and says, “Tell us about your terrible time, all over again.” Move on, look up, start a new relationship, and look towards the horizon and the dawn. There will be a lot of that with Jack as well.”
I think it’s asking a lot ot expect End of Time to grind to a halt and recap the events of CoE… it’s not as if that episode isn’t overblown and overloaded enough as it is. I watched it with a bunch of people who watch DW and not TW and they either just didn’t care why Jack looked so miserably or they invented their own reasons. Would you rather Jack hadn’t been in that episode at all? At least it showed him starting to be happy again.
Jay Beu
January 16, 2011 at 7:30 pm
“We loved Tosh and Owen, but when they died, we could go…well, at least we still have Ianto. We put all those remaining egg’s in Mr. Jones’ basket. All that grief and disappointment were able to be deferred because we still had him…and then we didn’t and it all came out. All that extra grief came out because not only did he die but Tosh and Owen were barely mentioned which felt weird because if you lose your colleagues like that, don’t you remember them more than that? Even as time passes, don’t you remember them?”
Erica, you have hot the nail on the head so hard right here that the wood is splintered! This is exactly how so many feel, this is exactly why SO MANY are still upset.
Yes, I was very upset after watching “Exit Wounds” but I still had at least one character who was empathic and felt so human (Ianto). He helped soothe the pain and got me excited when I heard about CoE. Then he died and I was too upset to really care about Day 5. The fact that literally hundreds of people had to be at least hurt, if not killed, by this point (because you know, you KNOW that some parent, some older sibling, some little grandma got hurt or killed trying to protect their little ones from those soldiers and the people in the Thames House all died, PLUS Frobisher’s family… ALL BEFORE STEVEN) barely registered to me at the time.
And now, to be told that they will not be mentioned in Miracle Day… Why not? The past is important BECAUSE it’s the past. The past makes the future what it is. Owen, Ianto, Toshiko, Alice and Steven… They ALL make up Jack and Gwen’s past.
And yes, RTD has basically claimed that they will not be mentioned because there’s no need for Gwen, as Jack’s friend, to talk to him about the grief he supposedly is still feeling over it all. I’m sorry but even though he died nearly 18 years ago, I still bring up my grandfather from time to time. I have many happy memories and love to talk about them. And according to Jack’s reports in the book “Torchwood Archives”, he planned on talking about Owen and Tosh all the time, to be sure they were remembered. So why does that not apply now? Are they and Ianto, Alice and Steven not important enough to be remembered?
kirri
February 2, 2011 at 12:56 pm
Isnto was bisexual
Diane
January 15, 2011 at 2:47 pm
Why is Ianto so popular that is the question.
For me it was because he was a heroic character. He was in the back ground doing his job but when called on to act he was amazing. He risked everthing to save the woman he loved.
He sacrifcied himself to save Tosh. He put his life on the line in episodes like Meat. Was resourcefull and had an extremely witty sense of humour. He was loyal hard working and loved deeply.
The relationship between him and Jack was not in your face, I the viewer had to work it out from the clues. There was one episode where Jack and Ianto were wearing the same coloured shirt, it was clear Ianto had stayed over.
I identifed with him from the beginning, he was someone who got on with their job no matter how distasteful and did it well. He was the backbone of the organisation making sure everthing the TW team needed so they could do their jobs without drama. He would act in the best intersts of the team and had a way of relating to Jack that did not include confrontation, I am thinging about ‘Adrift’. It was obvious that Ianto knew a lot about Jack secrets and the working of TW than had ever been entrusted to Gwen or any of the others. He was witty and funny and he loved Jack and Jack loved him.
Then there is Gwen, she was police woman, a PC who was selfish enough to leave her parter Andy and take off in her car having to walk miles to catch up with her. Nosey. Bloody minded, opionated, often acted without thinkng through the consequences. She was selfish often only thinking of her own needs. She lied to her boyfreind, had an affair with Owen, then was so guilty she wanted to confess so she could have his forgiveness but retcons him to do it. He wants a family but is so self obssessed she can only thing of her self. Rhys loves her but god knows why poor man. At their wedding she moons about with Jack.
Need I say more – Ianto for me was the reason I watched TW. Every epidsode had small Jack and Ianto moment and it was wonderful.
Now he’s gone and we are left with Gwen.
Gwenwood – I shudder at the very thought.
Nyrhalahotep
January 15, 2011 at 4:37 pm
I must say, I’m surprised by the awesome feedback here!
I’m thrilled that so many of you have taken the time to write your opinions & idea’s. Torchwood is an excellent series, and if the producers listen to the fans, it will remain so.
Let your voice be heard, the old saying “the squeeky wheel gets the grease” still holds true today. The more voices that are heard, the more likely it is that Torchwood goes in the direction we wish.
Again, I thank you for your incredible insights, and I look forward to hearing more.
I will be providing a link to BBC, the producers & affiliates of Torchwood to this forum. Perhaps, this will help to make some some much needed changes.
Cheers, Nyrhalahotep
JL
January 15, 2011 at 7:47 pm
Gwen is the writers’ “Mary Sue” and Ianto is certain portions of fandom’s “Marty Stu”. They’re 2 sides of the same [irritating] coin. Personally, I find them to be the weakest of the characters on the show and wish they’d been killed off in S3 rather than Tosh and Owen.
Gwen has been often touted by TPTB as “the heart” of Torchwood, yet they’ve never managed to actually display this trait. More often than not she comes across as self-serving, hypocritical and egotistical.
Add to that having her constantly pushed to the front and center (and let’s not even start with ridiculous advancements like the whole ‘last member to join the team is the one who supposedly led it while Jack was gone with the Doctor’ nonsense), it all adds up to make her a nuisance more than anything else.
Ianto is the token love interest on the show who gets the occasional snappy line (primarily in a few eps in S2). Everything about the character inevitably leads back to Jack – even his standing up to Owen in “Captain Jack Harkness” boiled down to proving his loyalty to Jack (for all of one episode before he betrayed him again).
They loved to put him into perilous situations, so Jack can come rescue him and it allowed him the “poor woobie” factor that some fans just can’t resist. Beyond that, he was just the tea boy who cleaned up the place and ‘looked good in his suit’ (according to Jack anyway). Ironically, he was the most 3-dimensional he’d ever been in CoE.
While I like having an actual representation of a homosexual relationship on the screen, I’d much rather have more of the love/hate between Captain Jack and Captain John – who even in just a couple episodes showed more dimensions to his character than either Ianto or Gwen have shown in 3 series.
Awix
January 16, 2011 at 6:22 am
I agree entirely with the way Gwen’s written not tallying with the way she’s described by Rusty and others – but it seems to be something that’s a recurring theme in his writing.
That said, I didn’t really object to Gwen taking over the team, as, regardless of things like seniority, she was easily the best-qualified of a bunch of borderline-sociopaths. Owen was too abrasive (and had already shown poor judgement), Tosh totally lacking in confidence, and Ianto not a forceful enough personality.
(Though given that standard Torchwood procedure when disagreeing with a superior officer seems to be to put a bullet in them (cf Captain Jack Harkness and End of Days) the others may have elected Gwen to the post to maximise their chances of getting rid of her.)
I think you’re bang on the money describing the ‘poor woobie’ thing as the reason for Ianto’s popularity with his superhardcore fans – that, and the fact he’s a blank slate for most of the first series which makes him easy to idealise. (After seeing KKBB, I remember writing a friend an email saying ‘new TW so much better than series 1, Ianto even has a personality’.) The fact the rest of the characters are sometimes irritating probably didn’t hurt, either.
Chrys
January 16, 2011 at 5:17 pm
“(Though given that standard Torchwood procedure when disagreeing with a superior officer seems to be to put a bullet in them (cf Captain Jack Harkness and End of Days) the others may have elected Gwen to the post to maximise their chances of getting rid of her.)”
I’m sure it will not surprise you that I wish that strategy had worked!
Awix
January 16, 2011 at 6:05 pm
Not in the slightest! 🙂
JL
January 16, 2011 at 11:05 pm
(Though given that standard Torchwood procedure when disagreeing with a superior officer seems to be to put a bullet in them (cf Captain Jack Harkness and End of Days) the others may have elected Gwen to the post to maximise their chances of getting rid of her.)
Okay, that’s a reasoning I can live with. 😉
Em
January 16, 2011 at 12:56 am
Short answer? Because although by all rights Gwen should be a character I should be thrilled is in a main role despite being female, I’m not.
Gwen is annoying. She crushes on Jack to the point I felt sorry for Rhys. She cheats on him then tries to get him to forgive her, and wipes his memory when he won’t.
She apparently led the team while Jack was gone during TYTNW but we see none of that so can’t really judge her.
Tosh was serious, less overtly emotional and someone easy to admire. Gwen was the type of woman who would be a total pain to work with and who would always feel she was right about everything.
I think Ianto came to appeal to a lot of fans following his girlfriend’s death when it showed the strength of his devotion to someone he loved, even if it meant risking the world. Hard not to like a character like that. I think viewers really wanted to see more of his life and background and his character’s death cut all that short.
Beatie
January 16, 2011 at 1:03 pm
Why do I love Ianto Jones? It’s more about the moments than the whole because the whole like a lot of things on this show was ultimately unsatisfying, but the moments raised some very intriguing possibilities that certainly kept me interested. But two scenes in particular cemented my love. In Counticide. Everyone else is busy bitching out Owen for leaving the keys in the SUV and getting it stolen. He quietly gets on with tracking it down. They Keep Killing Suzie. The last scene. So wrong, so weird, but who else would fashion a stopwatch as a sex toy. And it certainly didn’t hurt that GLD managed to make the often very little he was given work for him. I loved that in the little we got to see of him he was quiet and unassuming and just got on with things, that he tended towards the proactive both personally and professionally and had a dry, droll sense of humour. And that despite the fact that he apparently single-handedly managed to squirrel his cybergirlfriend into the hub undetected he still managed to come off as wonderfully ordinary. I think he (and Tosh post s1) were mostly wasted on this show and I can’t help wishing the show had expended as much effort on developing their characters while they were around as they eveidently did in writing their deaths.
As for Gwen I don’t dislike her, I was just never as enamoured of her as the show clearly wanted me to be and still seems desperate to make me and thought she would have faired better in a show that was truly an ensemble show than one so clearly designed as a vehicle to show off Eve Myles.
Gravitule
January 16, 2011 at 2:40 pm
I started to watch because of Captain Jack.
During ep1 I watched through Gwen eyes but as soon as she lied to her fiance she lost my interest. And after she retconned Rhys there was no way I could identify to her. I cannot say I dislike her, it’s just that I am not interested in her character. She looks like a poor imitation of a “I am an idependant woman” like you could see in some old adds in 1985.
On the other hand Ianto got me interested immediately. Who is this mysterious guy there on the back? More interesting to watch Torchwood through his eyes. He is lovely to identify to. And he has great chemistry with Jack and they looked as they shared something from the start.
I am not realy ennoyed with Gwen. It’s just that I don’t care. She can stay, leave, die…as long as I am not requested to love her, that’s fine.
Ianto is another story…I want to know more about him and I love the way Gareth played him.
Anyway I watched Torchwood for enjoyment and there was none in COE.
It even destroyed my love for Captain Jack.
I wish I never watched it…
Awix
January 17, 2011 at 5:07 am
Grrr. Blog’s not letting me reply in the right place. Anyway…
“Excalibur not being commissioned may not be a surprise. But RTD could have pitched it as its own show, after the success of Dr. Who, wouldn’t you think?”
Yeah, but the BBC actively solicited him for a DW spin-off (several, as it eventually turned out), and why not piggyback the new show off the massive success of DW? Why make things harder for the new show than they had to be?
I’m not really sure what your line is, here. If you’re argument really is that Rusty actively set out to destroy TW “because the show had taken a different direction from the one he had planned for it, and it wasn’t the show he wanted to write, which was about Eve Myles playing an alien hunting character. He wanted to write “Excalibur”, not Torchwood. And no one would buy it, so he decided to ruin Torchwood so he could write it”…
Well, first off, he’s been one of the bosses of Torchwood throughout its history and basically top man on the creative/storytelling side (Chris Chibnall did what RTD said). It was RTD’s idea to turn Owen rather than Ianto into a zombie, RTD’s idea to kill Tosh and Owen – how could the show develop in a direction he didn’t want, with him agreeing to every major creative decision?
Secondly, with old-TW out of the way, surely RTD would now be free to make a Gwen-centric ‘tough girl hunts aliens’-type show under the TW banner – and yet MD looks to be another ensemble piece with a lot of the focus on this new guy Rex and the other US characters.
Saintash
January 18, 2011 at 4:42 am
The reason I think Ianto Jones is so well liked was because he was the tension breaker for most of the series , in the moments when the rest of the team and viewer was feeling the pull of drama or uncomfortable of the moment it was Ianto who would break the moment up with a quick joke or one liner. He made the viewers laugh, and the audience always respond to someone who can make them feel.
Personally I found myself not really connecting to him when it become clearly had no long term goals for is life, after surviving Torchwood one. He gets up every morning understanding that he may not have tomorrow. They made him a very clear realist without making him cold and bitter character, I found him to be a refreshing change of pace in responses to relationship with an immortal. As they are often written so poorly. Ianto is smart enough to realize how hopeless it is to love an immortal, he knows he’s not Jack’s first love, and he knows he will not be the last, he knows someone who will live forever, chances are given a few thousand years they will be forgotten, they show him as a man who knows he gets that all he has is this moment with Jack, while Jack all he has is next moments
Gwen was the new Character the new person who doesn’t belong so everything that got said was explained and the viewer would not question why other people on the team wouldn’t know what was going on. Eve Myles didn’t do a bad job of being the new Girl. However I didn’t think she needed to be the focus of the show like she was.
For all intensive purpose Jack should have been the center of the show, and over time the show sort of became about her.
I never felt that Torchwood was missing humanity on the level that and Gwen seamed to complain and rant about. She was the new girl and in a place where every other one of teammates had lost something big and important who had to make hard choices, for the sake of others without being thanked for it. As for Her role at the member with the ‘higher moral ground’ she is a bit of Hypocrite when it comes to a lot of moral issues. She cheated on her boyfriend who loves her, then made him forget it. This is completely unfair to Rys not giving him the ability to forgive or leave her for her act that wronged him. Even on her wedding day she lose more of this ‘moral ground’ when she is standing in her wedding dress moments from being married implying she would walk off with Jack if he said the right thing, not matter how much it would Hurt, both Rys and Ianto. It also seamed unrealistic as the newest team member for her to take command once Jack was gone pushing her more into a lead role then she had.
Part of the reason I think she isn’t liked as much is Gwen and Jack really didn’t have the screen chemistry to pull off the unrequited love between them. Jack opened up to her but it never felt like it was to make her closer to him, I always felt that was to let the viewer know what’s happening with him rather than making himself closer to her. Gwen was at her most interesting in season one is when she was cheating on her boyfriend with Owen, her struggling with what she had with life and what she has was she was shaken she as character shined like a star.
Another thing that I think bothers most people is Gwen never had to lose something for the job. Owen, Tosh, Ianto, And Jack lost people they loved, and also lost their lives, Gwen who was the newest. Gets to have family a loving husband and a new baby on the way, she sort of comes off as visitor in the end to the world of Torchwood she can move on with her life and once the events of all three seasons are done, where the rest of the team Never got to walk way .
As for the big Question Will Ianto Jones rise from the ashes to rescue Torchwood from an uncertain fate?
And as much as I love Ianto, I hope not. Ianto’s death was beautiful heart wrenching moment. The kind of cruel fate the Members of Torchwood all know they will face some day. It was touching to see the unflappable Captain Jack just break apart over his lovers quiet begging not for a promise of love but to go to his death wanting to believing that what they had between the short three or four years they were together was important enough for Jack to hold on to thousands of years from now. And you don’t get to know if he dies believing Jack or not.
Bringing Ianto back would take all meaning from his noble death. Look at comic books it’s a joke how often they kill and bring someone back. Death is hard to deal with but something everyone must go through.
Ianto was wonderful exceptional character but that how the story of Torchwood and ‘the 456’ went, no one in torchwood lives to collect their pension.
Karel
January 27, 2011 at 9:05 am
Only,851 people want Ianto back?
That is just a tiny bit in comparison with the people who have watched it.
It is over 2 years now,so I think it is time that people stop crying over a fictional character.
Ianto was not an important character and when he got pushed to the front as Jack`s loveinterest he failed to be an interesting character.
Besides,Gareth has already found another job,and it would be better for his self proclaimed fans to support him in that instead of pushing him to something which is over.
He himself has said that his career has been sabotaged by his so called fans,so be happy he actually has a job.
Jips
January 27, 2011 at 5:45 pm
“He himself has said that his career has been sabotaged by his so called fans”
Anything to back up your statement? Let’s think about it? Girl Number 9, Sherlock Holmes, Casimir Effect (which still not diffuse and not sure it will, will see later) and now Red Faction and all that after COE. Indeed, sabotaged!
“That is just a tiny bit in comparison with the people who have watched it.”
Anything to back that too? Where you base your statement? So maybe we should all take a look at the supportive Torchwood 4 sites on the web and made a conclusion that the total of numbers are indeed the exact number of viewers for series 4.
“Ianto was not an important character and when he got pushed to the front as Jack`s loveinterest he failed to be an interesting character.”
Well for some he was, for others he was not. However, he was on the list of best sci-fi buthler, he’s death create an outcry, also worse gay death of the decade. I’m very impress by the impact of a “minor” character.
“It is over 2 years now,so I think it is time that people stop crying over a fictional character.”
Right! Crying is so the right word! Some folks are passionnate to still discuss about Torchwood series 1-2, or Tosh and Owen, because apparently, it is not fine and mean crying.
“him to something which is over.”
Torchwood is over? I do agree with that though.
Viane
January 27, 2011 at 5:56 pm
I think that much more than the 905 on this poll want Ianto back (only 142 don’t ).
Ianto has this “little something” that makes people simply love him.
And there is a reason he was nominated “cult hero” by SFX. He is a great character and Gareth David-Lloyd is an awesome actor. He made so much of the little he got.
And Karel, please don’t spread lies. Gareth himself said on WalesOnline that he missed playing Ianto.
I for myself will support Gareth in everything he wíll do and still hope he will come back as Ianto.
Awix
January 27, 2011 at 7:27 pm
Red rag to a bull, anyone? 😉
‘Cult hero’ = madly adored by a small number of people, the clue is in the word ‘cult’.
I think if one were to poll every viewer of TW:CoE as to whether Ianto Jones should be resurrected the majority response by far would be ‘Who? You mean the cheesy guy who did all those musicals and Desperate Housewives?’, followed closely by ‘I don’t give a damn either way’.
And just because you miss something it doesn’t necessarily mean you want to go back to doing it…
A
Kiki
January 27, 2011 at 7:33 pm
Well if they think the cheesy guy who did all those musicals and Desperate Housewives died in CoE they clearly didn’t bother enough to hang around until Day 4, huh? Guess even a casual viewer can spot the difference between Captain Jack/ John Barrowman and Ianto Jones/ Gareth David Lloyd, not to mention that CoE must have been worse then I thought when they didn’t notice that said cheesy guy has a certain problem with dieing at all. ;o)
Jips
January 27, 2011 at 7:49 pm
Well Awix, I’m wrong but Captain Jack is played by John Barrowman who is this actor who played in Desperate Housewives? Ianto Jones is played by Gareth David-Lloyd?
And if people will say who? then it’s probably because they don’t watch Torchwood… AT ALL.
Face it, your statement is unstated. SFX is very well know in sci-fi community and people generally voting is because they actually watch who know, well actually, in question, what the poll talk about.
“And just because you miss something it doesn’t necessarily mean you want to go back to doing it…”
no, however when you dislike it is your right to not support it and even go back to fix it. In the case of this particular subject topic, folks love Ianto and want him back and other don’t plan to watch anymore Torchwood.
If you miss your mother or a friend, didn’t you go see them?
DVCorvis
January 27, 2011 at 9:10 pm
SFX is not only a well known Sci-Fi community but they also a very highly respected most popular/highest circulated science fiction magazine in The UK and Europe.
And To Awix trying down play Gareth David Llyod’s cult status: One should do a little reaserch before demonstrating a bias that holds little water at least in this particular case.
Or better to quote SFX
Even the grave couldn’t stop Torchwood’s Ianto Jones, Gareth David-Lloyd, guaranteeing his place in the SFX cult hero hall of fame. Graduating from a glorified tea lady in season one to fully fledged action-hero sidekick by “Children Of Earth” wasn’t half as surprising as the outcry which met his untimely death at the hands of The 456. We’re still receiving emails about it to this day and folk even left flowers in Cardiff Bay to mourn his passing. If that isn’t the sign of a cult hero we don’t know what is.
Awix
January 28, 2011 at 5:39 am
Sigh.
My point *was* that the overwhelmingly vast majority of the 6.76 million people who watched CoE day 4 have probably forgotten the details of the plot, and the only person off the show they’re probably aware of is Barrowman.
I wasn’t talking about the cult of Ianto, just the wider viewership, who are obviously less concerned about the lad’s demise than you guys. *Obviously* you guys want Ianto to come back, you’re Ianto fans. It’s like saying ‘poll reveals 98% of basketball fans like basketball’.
The ‘just cos you miss something doesn’t mean you want to do it again’ was actually a reference to GDL. Maybe he does want to come back to TW. Maybe not. I’ve yet to see a definite statement from him on that. ‘I miss it’ doesn’t mean the same thing. I miss some of the places I used to live, doesn’t mean I want to move back there.
‘SFX is very well known in SF community’ – which doesn’t at all revolve around TV with cult followings.
He won the *Cult Hero* award, for heaven’s sake: ‘Cult (n.) – an exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric interest… obsessive, faddish devotion to a person or thing.’
And in case you’re wondering further:
‘Exclusive (adj.) – not shared with others,’ and ‘esoteric (adj) – confined to a small group.’
I’m not saying there isn’t a (small) dedicated bunch of passionate people who love Ianto to bits. Anyone reading this thread can see that. I’m just saying that he’s a relatively minor character in a cult show and most people, even ones who actually watched the series, simply don’t care that much about him.
kirri
February 2, 2011 at 1:18 pm
Yeah, only your numbers are off a bit. The viewing figures for Day Five went down to 5.9- a small but really significant number when you reckon that, were this really the hit show people in the States seem to think, the numbers should have gone up, hugely, for the last night. See, the problem is that those numbers are good, true, but really not “huge” by UK standards. To put it into perspective, DW the Moffat Year, has notched up highs of 11 million per episode and lows of 5.5 million! LOWS of 5.5 million!
Awix
February 2, 2011 at 1:44 pm
Well, you’re talking about a Friday night, when people tend to go out, especially in summer which is when CoE went out.
If we’re going to start quoting figures, the official BARB ratings for CoE are 6.76 for day four and 6.58 for day five, according to Wikipedia (unless BARB and Wiki are both part of the keep Ianto dead conspiracy…). That’s not a very big drop in the circumstances. Day Five still got the second highest ratings across the week. The real dip was day two.
I don’t believe you can really compare TW (a post-watershed show with a very culty reputation) with DW (one of the biggest family dramas on TV, usually debuting in Saturday prime-time) in terms of their ratings…
A
Kiki
January 28, 2011 at 4:46 pm
Guess we have to agree to disagree then, huh? I think a little online research would show you that there are a lot more then nine or what ever people out there who liked Ianto very much or even only watched Torchwood for him. Anyway, I’m tired of discussing the same thing over and over again. Fact is, there are people out there who won’t watch Torchwood without him, there are people out there who don’t care that much about Ianto but who are fed up with Torchwood for other reasons (like leaving Wales, the changes between S1+2 and CoE, or they simply can’t stand Gwen anymore), then I haven’t heard a single spoiler yet that has forced a positive reaction out of the fandom. I think that Torchwood needs all the help it can get to survive it’s first season as an “US show”, it’s on a small channel, it’s pay TV, there are many Sci-Fi shows out there with way better writing and less plot holes then Torchwood’s last seasons had. If bringing back Ianto will give them more viewers then they should do it, they’ll need them. I wish some people would stop spreading bad things about the people in the campaign, because in the end we are all fans of the same show. It’s not a campaign AGAINST Torchwood, it’s a campaign asking for the return of a beloved character.
Awix
January 28, 2011 at 5:50 pm
Who said nine? I said that the cult of Ianto is just a minority interest even within fandom, and only after it seemed like others were suggesting it was more widespread than that.
I haven’t meant to insult anyone or give needless offence to the Ianto fan club. I apologise if I have. I’ve just been trying to present a different point of view and suggest reasons why the current situation exists, beyond the ‘it’s a deliberate attempt to upset the fans’ which I’ve heard.
(And also why it’s possible to like old-TW, *and* COE, *and* be hopeful about MD as well, which I seem to be alone in on this thread.)
Jips
January 28, 2011 at 9:07 pm
Fair enough. I’m going to be frankly honest.
Torchwood was really awesome and I was one of those fans wanting more and more because I believed it was a unique show with a lot of potential.
but
COE arrived and it was actually nothing then what I was expecting. The plot was just a what going on there? Giant powerful evil alien with three heads needing a little chamber for discussing with the government.
AND
The only sci-fi elements is actually, an alien and someone who can’t die.
AND
Characters we never heard before are pop up and get more screen time than the stars.
AND
When I realized Gwen Cooper was pushing down in my throat again when Jack and Ianto was just showing as a farce, I beginning to wonder what I was just watching.
AND
When Day 4 was the most ridiculous plan (if we can called that a plan) I never seen, where was the Torchwood is so ready? Because I believed they were actually, well, ready but apparently they were not.
AND
The 21st century is where everything change. For what? Gwen got a baby?? Gwen go save America?
AND
When you do realized Gwen Cooper is apparently the human side heroine, star of Torchwood and she can even survive an explosion without a single scratch, well it fail badly.
AND
When you count too many plot holes in that script and a complete lack of development characters (except Gwen or when it’s about…well Gwen)
AND
When you finally told your critics that you disagree Ianto death was so necessary because of all the sacrifice Jack made before or that they are not stupid enough to go doing a nice chat with big bad evil Terrible 456 and that COE was weird, you are told that you cannot understand the genuisity of the drama and Torchwood itself, that you just watch Torchwood for “cute” boys .
THEN
I actually wonder if that show really deserve my time?
BUT
When I do acknowledge that Ianto was my favorite character because for what he represent to me and his qualities I found awesome + the mysterious strange story he got behind we had actually never being told! You have more chance someone told you to get over it
(which BTW get over it comment didn’t actually countradict any point at all)
AND
When I read that apparently now, the GDL fans are not is real fans and they sabotages his career (see comment above) when all that is pure lies
AND
When I’m paint as a crazy Ianto fan because I dare to love him more than any others characters.
Then
No I’m sorry but I’m not enjoying the idea to give support to Torchwood MD and that is my own opinion. It’s not a question of vengeance or trying to destroyed Torchwood like some pretend, I didn’t want to watch something that I lose any interested in the survivors and especially the story.
And for the record, maybe the Ianto fans are just a little minority in all that, but at least they are pround to love a fictionnal character who was throw in the garbage for the shopping in the Americanize US version of immortalities in the world… WOW never seen that before. But dead is dead because Torchwood is realistic.
Awix
January 29, 2011 at 9:47 am
Sigh (again).
We’ve already been over most of this stuff, and as for the rest I’m beginning to wonder if there’s any point trying to have an actual discussion… the message I’m getting isn’t just that you guys didn’t like CoE or Ianto getting croaked – this much is obvious – but also that you can’t imagine *anyone* who liked TW in general thinking that CoE is in many ways the best series to date, that MD might actually turn out to be good, or that the decision to kill the lad might be defensible on any level. These sorts of ideas are clearly not welcome around you guys, and (presumably) neither are people who might genuinely have them.
Cheerio, then…
Jips
January 29, 2011 at 7:23 pm
You making assumption that I can’t imagine anyone loving COE which is clearly an unstated argument.
Oh maybe MD can be the best show ever in the decade, however I will still not watch it because I will not share the sentiment especially after I read what was the story (which many others shows give before), that I cannot see anything “awesome” about Gwen and that I don’t think Jack is a hero at all and of course, the unbelievable plot holes in the script. So in short, this is not my cup of tea anymore.
You consider because I don’t want to give or disagree you consider it an attack or anything against folks sharing your opinion an perception.
However, that seem to be extremely wrong to love Ianto more than any others characters for the TW4 fans lovers in generall which I will never get it (no pointing fingers here).
And no I don’t try to be hardcore in this debate, I do mentionned the best as I can why I dislike COE, why I love Ianto, why I don’t plan to watch anymore. No one have to agree with me if they don’t share it.
Viane
January 29, 2011 at 1:57 pm
Awix, you are simply assuming things about others. I do love some parts of CoE and hate others. OK mostly hate it. And I do have my doubts about MD. But everyone has his own opinion and can express it. It’s not a matter of trying to convice the others. You have made you opinion clear here. But you must accept that some people have their own ideas about CoE and MD. Can I remind you that people posted here to say “what is it about Ianto Jones that can create such fierce loyalty in the fan base? I hope to use this post as a target for the fans to express their thoughts, and explain just what it is about Ianto’s magnetism.”
Awix
January 29, 2011 at 3:51 pm
Well, I started by giving my thoughts about why I thought Ianto was so popular, which 93% of raters didn’t like. Presumably this is because I didn’t say ‘oh, he’s so brave and funny, and GDL is a fantastic actor,’ or ‘killing him was an insult and marked the destruction of what I consider to be Torchwood’.
If you present an opinion disagreeing with either of those sentiments, you’re going to be unpopular. I’m fully aware that others have different opinions, as I’ve got eyes and have looked at this page. Looking at this page and listening to what people have said has also made me a little more understanding of the issues the pro-resurrection lobby has with CoE. However, I’ve seen no evidence of any of them being prepared to give leave-him-dead opinions or arguments any consideration at all. So why should anyone bother to give them?
Yeah, this is a place for fans to express their thoughts. Provided they’re along the lines of ‘oh my God I’m not watching Miracle Day unless they bring him back’. Anything else is going to get disagreed with.
Jips
January 29, 2011 at 7:14 pm
“I’ve seen no evidence of any of them being prepared to give leave-him-dead opinions or arguments any consideration at all. So why should anyone bother to give them?”
No have to disagree or I’m not sure I understand what you said here. There is a lot of reasons myself, Chrys and others give about why he can come back and disagree with “let him dead”.
Argument 1 -> It was done before resurrect character in Torchwood
Argument 2 – > Even Jack cannot die
Argument 3 – > Since everyone is immortals, why that should ruin COE?
Argument 4 – > I didn’t seen no one complaining when they resurrect Owen, Suzie, Rhys, Jack.
But as much I would love they consider bringing him back, I don’t think they will do it since it’s now mostly American.
Kiki
January 30, 2011 at 5:23 pm
@Awix Nope, you can like or dislike what you want. Helloho? it’s a free world. But that also means that I can have my own POV and can dislike CoE or say “No” to Miracle Day as loud and as much as I want. It has to go both ways, you know? So what’s the problem with being the old person around who seems to look forward to it? I doubt that somebody will attack you on a personal level for that, but if you post something then there’s the possibility that someone with a different POV will pick up that topic. I have absolutely no problem with people who can’t wait of MD to air, or people who think Gwen is the best character ever (or things like that), it’s just not how I see things, I disagree with them, they probably disagree with me. End.Of.Story.
Awix
January 30, 2011 at 6:09 pm
Possibly because it’s because I *don’t* automatically Dislike a post simply because I disagree with the poster’s opinion, just as I don’t Like a post simply because I do.
It’s not that I object to people reading my opinions and disagreeing with me. It’s that I get the impression anything that isn’t flatly pro-Ianto/GDL and anti-CoE is going to be ignored automatically.
How can I tell that? I don’t know, just from the tone and language of some of the posts here. I’m being accused of speaking for the entire audience when I wasn’t claiming to, I and others have been challenged to justify things we’ve said here, or been accused of lying. I’ve not made any accusations or challenges.
Okay, so I’ve pointed it out when people seemed to be changing the meanings of words to suit themselves, and possibly I could have done that more gently. But on the whole I think I’ve been pretty restrained.
A
Viane
January 29, 2011 at 5:08 pm
“this is a place for fans to express their thoughts” Yes, it is. So I don’t understand what you are expecting ? Opinions on both sides can be a bit “harsh”.
And I’m sorry about that.
But there is a big difference between the “pro-resurrection lobby” as you called us and the “leave-him-dead” fraction. You are very clever, I’m sure you can see it.
Viane
January 29, 2011 at 6:23 pm
My translation programm don’t do very well “sarcasm” and my PC mades attempts of rebellion. Sorry, but in my mind harsh isn’t so negativ as in yours. People discuss with passion, and there is no problem if there are no insults, lies, and intent to hurt.
And there is no sarcasm at all in my question about the fondamental difference between those two “factions”. One has a goal (realistic or not) It’s people trying to make something happen. The other exist just in reaction. They have nothing constructive to say , but “dead is dead” “get over it” (you are spoiling our little party , how dare you) Oh and because it will “cheapen” Ianto’s death. But as I have read about MD, the new audience will not need to know what happend in CoE, it’s all “new”. So this new audience surely won’t be upset if the character of Ianto Jones returns. So why not?
Jips
January 29, 2011 at 7:45 pm
yes this! So much.
I so agree with you here.
Viane
January 29, 2011 at 5:17 pm
“this is a place for fans to express their thoughts” Yes, it is. So I don’t understand what you are expecting ? Logical discussions about a show with no logic at all ?
Opinions on both sides can be a bit “harsh” now and then. And yes it makes me sad sometimes. But there is a big difference between the “pro-resurrection lobby” as you called us and the “leave-him-dead” fraction. You are very clever, I’m sure you can see it.
Awix
January 29, 2011 at 5:33 pm
Yeah, well the fact that they’re two different factions is a bit of a tip-off to that fact. I just wish I was clever enough to be sure when I was reading sarcasm…
But, having a major difference in opinion with people gives you a license to be harsh with them? I would disagree. I’ve done my best to avoid being harsh and dismissive of the pro-resurrection lobby’s opinions, even though I don’t share them. I haven’t really sensed that coming back the other way.
(Are you saying the whole of TW is totally illogical, or just CoE? Either way I would disagree with you. It’s the fact it goes back and forth between logic and absurdity that makes it so frustrating to watch sometimes…)
Jips
January 29, 2011 at 7:05 pm
“I’ve done my best to avoid being harsh and dismissive of the pro-resurrection lobby’s opinions, even though I don’t share them. I haven’t really sensed that coming back the other way. ”
Well I didn’t label anyone with a cute name in that thread. I however, express my opinions, displeasure and sentiments.
Awix
January 30, 2011 at 4:47 am
How exactly is calling the people who want Ianto resurrected the pro-resurrection lobby a ‘cute name’? You’re lobbying in favour of a resurrection, aren’t you? It’s an accurate description.
You seem to think that *not* being pro-resurrection automatically means someone is being negative. I disagree. If your only goal is to resurrect the lad, then my opinions are different, but it doesn’t make me ‘negative’. It is *possible* for people to think killing the lad worked well in that particular story and that bringing him back would damage TW. I’ve made those arguments here. We’re negative about a resurrection but positive about TW’s future.
The rest of us don’t just exist ‘in reaction’, as you put it. I’m not even sure what you mean by that.
Is there any point in even continuing this discussion? We’ll just be going round and round and round until Jack’s head falls off…
Jips
January 30, 2011 at 4:15 pm
“How exactly is calling the people who want Ianto resurrected the pro-resurrection lobby a ‘cute name’? You’re lobbying in favour of a resurrection, aren’t you? It’s an accurate description.”
Isn’t it’s a label? I didn’t label you “deadawesomeness” neither I put a name to describe people who don’t share my view here.
“You seem to think that *not* being pro-resurrection automatically means someone is being negative”
You making assumption again…..
” It is *possible* for people to think killing the lad worked well in that particular story and that bringing him back would damage TW. I’ve made those arguments here. We’re negative about a resurrection but positive about TW’s future.”
I still don’t understand how you can think that we will ruin anything when you watched a show who the resurrection was made before since SERIES 1 which was my arguments.
Yes this discussion goes round and round because the same arguments keep coming which I reply with what I already said and finally become to some assumption from you that I think that about you etc.
It’s tiresome and I’m done repeating myself.
It was a nice discussion until that come to a slapping Ianto fans, dead is dead get over it. The topic was to why Ianto which I clearly reply.
Awix
January 30, 2011 at 6:34 pm
Jips, I’ve never thought you were making some kind of personal attack on me. Neither have I started ‘slapping Ianto fans’ – not for liking Ianto, anyway. I just think that anyone coming on here who’s not a full-on Ianto fan is given a harder time than someone who is.
“Isn’t it’s a label?” Well, I was using it as a name or a description, it was quicker to type than ‘people who think Ianto should come back’ over and over. How would you and other people who think Ianto should come back like to be referred to? You are a group. How can I refer to a group without using a name or a description?
““You seem to think that *not* being pro-resurrection automatically means someone is being negative”
You making assumption again…..”
Well, Viane said, about people who don’t want Ianto back:
‘[they] exist just in reaction. They have nothing constructive to say…’
That sounds to me like a declaration that these people are simply negative. You may not have made it, Jips, but I’m not just discussing this with you. You’ve been very reasonable about this.
“I still don’t understand how you can think that we will ruin anything when you watched a show who the resurrection was made before since SERIES 1 which was my arguments.”
Round and round, as you say. Okay, one more time, my argument is – if you’re making a serious adventure series for adults, you have to be able to put your characters in some kind of real danger for the stories to work. Death has to mean something. If you kill someone and then magically resurrect them simply because they’re popular (which is ultimately what we’re talking about), you remove death as a meaningful thing for the characters. Jack being immortal has already caused the writers problems, they have to keep doing things like blowing him to pieces and burying him (and his magic coat) for 2000 years to stop his power messing up the stories.
Jack comes back because that’s his gimmick, what makes him special. Suzie came back temporarily, in one episode. Owen died and came back in the same episode, it was always planned. Owen came back horribly damaged and died again permanently soon after. If you want to talk about killing off a character, leaving them dead for a long time, and then resurrecting them you’re talking about a soap opera.
I know you disagree with me. I will take that for granted and reread your earlier posts on this if it will save you retyping them down here. But you did bring this up again…
A
Jips
January 30, 2011 at 8:12 pm
Awix, I appologize.
I must be very confuse with who you were talking too so sorry for that.
We just disagree on this and honestly it’s fine. We will not agree on this subjet that is sure. I seen Torchwood differently then you do.
Viane
January 30, 2011 at 2:23 pm
Why complain that the discussion go round an round and go on pushing the wheel ?
I don’t know who you mean with the “rest of us” ? Don’t think you speak here of the rest of the audience ? In my comment about “leave-him-dead” being a reaction to “pro-ressurection” I was refering to people who only go into discussions in reaction to people asking for the return of Ianto. And they are negativ, not because their are not “pro-ressurection” but because their comments are negative.
Get over it.
Move on.
Dead is dead.
Stop asking for the return of Ianto (Shut up).
Even pretending GDL career has been sabotaged by people wanting the character of Ianto back.
And when GDL says he “miss playing Ianto”, saying that it’s not sure this means he want to play the character again.
For me when I say I miss something, that means I want it back. But I’m not so clever as you are.
Awix
January 30, 2011 at 3:12 pm
Well, I didn’t come here just to pick a fight but to give my opinion and discuss it (and those of others). When it became apparent that there wasn’t any common ground I stopped ‘pushing the wheel’, as you put it. I only jumped back in when I saw someone else being accused of lying and misrepresenting the facts just for saying that, overall, not that many people actually care that much about this issue.
It’s a matter of perspective, surely, whether being pro-resurrection or pro-status quo is the negative position. Saying being pro-dead is negative sort of presupposes that killing him must have been a mistake, and the majority of people who watched TW either disagree or don’t have an opinion.
Presumably calling something ‘a shambles’ and ‘lazy and offensive’, which is how COE has been described here, isn’t negative if it’s an opinion you happen to share.
You assume GDL has one set of opinions, other people assume something different. I think one of the impressive things about GDL is the way he’s kept his actual opinions to himself. However, I have found an interview from GDL himself, where he says…:
‘…when there are fans rallying and petitioning, you don’t want to upset anyone because [Ianto dying was] what the story needed. It’s obviously done its trick in being a drama, and you can’t side with them either when they’re upset because it looks like I’m asking for my job back, which I’m not in any way shape or form…’
I think he also says he only wanted to do three years, but I admit it’s open to interpretation. The full thing’s at http://news.whoviannet.co.uk/2010/10/exclusive-interview-gareth-david-lloyd/ if you don’t believe me.
And if GDL’s okay with Ianto dying, shouldn’t that mean something?
A
A
Jips
January 30, 2011 at 4:07 pm
What you want him to say? “No I’m not happy they killed Ianto, it was bad and all. Screw them…”?
Because I believed he won’t say that to not get into trouble. He also said that if he they ask him to come back, then maybe he will. That was said in many conventions and like Viane put in a recent interview on Wales Online, yes he miss playing Ianto.
And before you point me he want to move forward his career in many others roles, who’s the actor who won’t want that? And even if he played others roles, what stopped him to play Ianto?
Didn’t JB do others things with Torchwood?
Jips
January 30, 2011 at 4:32 pm
“I only jumped back in when I saw someone else being accused of lying and misrepresenting the facts ”
Well for a misrepresenting facts that is a good one.
“and the majority of people who watched TW either disagree or don’t have an opinion.”
With all due respect, I still don’t understand how you can speak for the majority viewers? Because they got 6 millions ratings for COE? Isn’t those who are not happy now was because they watched COE.
Awix
January 30, 2011 at 5:46 pm
Karel said the 851 people who wanted Ianto back was a small number compared to the 6 million who watched CoE. You asked him to back that up… do you really doubt that 851 is smaller than 6 million? I’m not sure what proof you would accept.
Or are you actually saying that all 6 million people who watched CoE want Ianto to come back? (Except me, Rusty, Karel and Steven Moffat, obviously.) In which case I would ask you to back *that* up.
(Now I think of it my parents watched CoE as well and they don’t care about Ianto coming back, either.)
Anyway the ‘save Ianto’ website people say they’ve delivered ‘over 100’ bags of coffee to the BBC since the lad croaked – if this was a massive campaign of millions, or even hundreds of thousands, I think more beans would have been posted by now…
Karel offered a few *opinions* about GDL’s career and his fans and was basically criticised for doing so, mainly because they weren’t pro-Ianto and pro-fans, so far as I could tell. Don’t know about the GDL quote he used, haven’t really researched that. He was certainly accused of spreading lies.
I’m not claiming to speak for the majority of viewers. I’m just saying that the ‘bring back Ianto’ fanbase is a very small part of the overall audience of the series. If 6 or even 3 million people felt as strongly about this as you then this issue would be a lot bigger than it is.
A
Jips
January 30, 2011 at 8:00 pm
I quoted Karel: “Besides,Gareth has already found another job,and it would be better for his self proclaimed fans to support him in that instead of pushing him to something which is over.
He himself has said that his career has been sabotaged by his so called fans,so be happy he actually has a job.”
Karel said he mentionned (with no links, no interview no proof) that his fans sabotaged his career which I asked proof to back this up.
Something so major will not stay quiet which only Karel will know about.
“save Ianto’ website people say they’ve delivered ‘over 100′ bags of coffee to the BBC ”
Where? http://www.saveianto.com/index.html
A poll represent a study. You can think what you want about it, but they still represent it.
So 900 people want Ianto back agaist 146 no. Should I made an assumption about the 146 like you did with the 900?
What is this so wrong for you that they express their opinions and voice to want a character back they feel passionate about?
“I’m not claiming to speak for the majority of viewers. I’m just saying that the ‘bring back Ianto’ fanbase is a very small part of the overall audience of the series. If 6 or even 3 million people felt as strongly about this as you then this issue would be a lot bigger than it is.”
You don’t even know how much people will watch Torchwood series 4. It’s not even diffuse yet.
End of the story.
Awix
January 31, 2011 at 4:22 am
Obviously I don’t know how many are going to watch MD. I was talking about the UK audience for CoE.
I don’t think there’s anything actually *wrong* with wanting Ianto back. I really think you guys are wating your time.
I’m going to be accused of claiming to speak for the whole audience again, but, this situation is strange – ‘people who want Ianto back’ feel very strongly and have a lot of passion. ‘People who are happy with the current situation (i.e. they’re happy for him to have died as he did)’ just don’t feel that strongly about it.
Re the amount of coffee… they said 20 bags a month. The figure is possibly more like ‘over 300’.
I don’t know where Karel got that quote from, but I’m not going to instantly assume it’s a lie simply because I don’t like it. I did find an interview where GDL says ‘…Torchwood fans… **** ’em!’ though.
It’s at http://www.cackblabbath.co.uk/2010/11/14/interview-with-gareth-david-lloyd-and-blue-gillespie/, before I’m accused of lying myself… and no, I’m not seriously suggesting he really thinks that.
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Jips
January 31, 2011 at 5:00 pm
“I did find an interview where GDL says ‘…Torchwood fans… **** ‘em!’ though.”
“I would imagine that you get some slightly confused Torchwood fans at some of the gigs, I mean it’s not exactly showtunes ?
No it’s not. We’re trying to recruit a Rock audience. We are so grateful to the Torchwood fans that have stayed and are happy in some case we’ve completely converted them to a life of heavy rock. But the few we’ve lost on the way due to not making the right kind of noise – fuck em!”
He sound to joke about the ones who don’t like his music… “We are so grateful to the Torchwood fans that have stayed and are happy ”
“few we’ve lost on the way due to not making the right kind of noise – fuck em!””
“Re the amount of coffee… they said 20 bags a month. The figure is possibly more like ‘over 300′.
”
Ha I see where you see that. You talked about the Resurrection Coffee, a box of 20 bags of coffees send each month. It’s a project, an idea from one of them. You forgot to count the indiviual one, the postcards, the letters, the emails etc which are not register.
Yes people feel passionate about Ianto and they want to send their taugh in a legal way.
Awix
January 31, 2011 at 5:17 pm
If you’re not even going to read everything I post…
** no, I’m not seriously suggesting he really thinks that**
You also forgot to mention those people who hated Ianto and who’ve been sending the BBC free coffee ever since CoE to say thank-you for killing him…
Jips
January 31, 2011 at 6:40 pm
well Awix, if you are going to talk to me like that, better ending the discussion right now.
I only state what I think about your link that you were using, If you don’t think he will say fuck off to all the TW fans, why mentionned it at all? you were using an example which I reply 🙂
I’m clever enough to see what is lie then a miskote.
“You also forgot to mention those people who hated Ianto and who’ve been sending the BBC free coffee ever since CoE to say thank-you for killing him…”
Well one of your argument was BBC don’t care what anyone can think, so you should just think they don’t care about the Ianto’s haters LOL! 😉
How many do you send to BBC to tell them thank you to kill Ianto? You seem to do it too 😉
Awix
January 31, 2011 at 7:22 pm
You said I meant something which I had already specifically said that I didn’t mean. How am I supposed to react to that?
It was (sigh) a joke.
As was the reference to ‘Ianto haters’ sending the BBC coffee.
I’m not a Ianto hater, he was, as I’ve said before, my favourite character.
But if I was really angry with the BBC or anyone else, I wouldn’t show them how unhappy I was by sending them lots of presents. That doesn’t really make sense.
kirri
February 2, 2011 at 1:28 pm
No, I think that, sensibly enough, we think that 851 is not a representative number of all the people involved.
About as sensible and Representative as nine, for example. You count every person that watched CoE irrespective of whether they liked it or not, but expect us to accept that 851- the number logged in this poll alone- as ALL the people who want Ianto back?
You need to think again……
Awix
February 2, 2011 at 2:26 pm
You misunderstand me. My point was really that the poll at the top of the page isn’t really representative of anything at all.
Who’s going to be coming to this page? Most likely, people who type TW and/or Ianto Jones into a search engine. Of those people, who’s going to feel most strongly motivated to take part in a ‘Should Ianto be resurrected?’ poll. Ianto fans. The majority of people bothering to post on this page are Ianto fans, so it’d be more surprising if the poll wasn’t heavily leaning towards a ‘bring the lad back’ position.
The ‘bring back Ianto’ movement is basically a protest. You don’t see people who broadly agree with the way things are being done going out and making a big fuss about that fact. I strongly doubt there is a committed keep-him-dead movement in opposition to you guys (apologies for labelling), just an overwhelming mass of people who are generally okay with the situation and don’t feel that strongly about it either way.
Awix
January 30, 2011 at 4:47 pm
I don’t *want* him to say anything in particular. I don’t mind what he says as long as he’s speaking his honest opinion.
I was kind of expecting people to say ‘oh that’s not what he really thinks’ but, you’re reinterpreting his own words to mean something different, simply because you prefer it – you say yourself it’s what you personally believe, not what’s there in the interview. He didn’t have to specifically say ‘I was comfortable, I enjoyed every minute of it’ if it wasn’t true.
Note he says ‘maybe’ when asked if he’ll come back, which means nobody gets upset at the time and he can’t be accused of lying if he does get asked back later (which almost certainly won’t happen: Rusty’s against it and it’s his show, Moffat’s against it too) and decides to say no. I refer you again to the bit where he says he always thought he would only do three years on TW.
We can discuss this in terms of what we’d like to be true. Or we can actually assume GDL means what he says when he’s interviewed.
A
Kiki
January 30, 2011 at 5:41 pm
You know I think in the end Torchwood is just a job, money. If they want Gareth back, and if he can fit it into his shedule I’m pretty sure he’ll do it as it would be good PR for him. And it is clear that he can’t run around “asking for his job back”, or even wait for them to come. He’s an awesome actor and I hope to see him in many other roles. But you can support his career AND ask for the return of Ianto at the same time.
Awix
January 30, 2011 at 5:53 pm
But they don’t want him back (I believe they may have said so, a few times), and he only wanted to do three years on the show anyway…
I’m getting a strong sense that fingers are put into ears if GDL ever suggests in an interview he doesn’t *want* to come back and was *happy* to leave the show when he did.
Yup, you can do both things. I think only one of them is likely to produce any kind of positive result, though…
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Kiki
January 31, 2011 at 5:02 pm
Well that’s your POV, feel free to think like that, me background info is a bit different though.
Awix
January 31, 2011 at 5:25 pm
I only go on things that people like drama executive producers involved with the BBC say (ambiguous comments like ‘death is death’ (Russell T Davies) and ‘we’re not bringing him back, stop asking’ (Steven Moffat)). Not to mention the actor involved. Obviously what they say is not to be taken seriously.
Your information must come from somebody more closely involved than the executive producer and lead writer of the series.
Jips
January 30, 2011 at 7:53 pm
“I’m getting a strong sense that fingers are put into ears if GDL ever suggests in an interview he doesn’t *want* to come back and was *happy* to leave the show when he did.”
No I will not because many of us (and all) want to see him in many others roles and looking forward to see next. Could you please stop thinking all we want about him is playing Ianto? just because we would love Ianto back. We not putting him on a char, in fact many was happy when he played in the Sherlock Holmes movie and many are very excited about the idea of Red Faction.
kirri
February 2, 2011 at 1:47 pm
GDL has never said that.
It was Awix twisting his words to suit themselves.
Really cheap arguing, there….
Awix
February 2, 2011 at 2:34 pm
No, GDL’s never said that, because he probably suspects part of his fanbase will evaporate or even turn hostile if he ever goes on the record to that effect. This suspicion may be totally unfounded, of course, but given the passionate nature of Ianto fans I’d understand him being cautious. (I sort of respect the way he’s comported himself since all this has started.)
Which words exactly did I seriously attempt to twist? The bit where he effectively said ‘I always thought I’d just do three years on the show’ or ‘I’m not asking for my job back in any way, shape, or form’?
It just seems to me that everything he says is carefully interpreted to mean ‘I want to come back to TW full-time and will instantly sign up if asked’…
A
Kiki
January 31, 2011 at 5:00 pm
Oh and I totally forgot this last night…
Something to think about for the people who say Ianto’s return would “cheapen” CoE. The way I see it CoE was about saving the Children on the planet. It was also the story of Steven Carter, a kid that died because he was at the wrong place at the wrong time. And all that happened only because he was the grandson of Jack Harkness. Otherwise he, a smart kid with a good background, would have been safe. Now both RTD and Eve said in interviews that Gwen would be “holding a gun in one hand and the baby on her other arm” in the next season. THAT was exactly the moment CoE was more cheapend then the return of character in a Sci-Fi show ever could. The second Gwen’s child will be in danger for the first time CoE will turn into nothing but a big laugh, because both Gwen and Jack learned nothing out of it. If Gwen is really that caring and big hearty and everything but still wants to work for Torchwood, she belongs behind a desk or something like that, at least her child belongs as far away from her job as possible. And Jack? I think he should have ret-conned Gwen at the end of CoE (if she HAS to be back, then she can fight the ret-con again), not run for it and leave Torchwood in the hands of a pregnant woman. It’s one of the big reasons why I can’t care for Jack after CoE anymore. I can understand his hurt and need to get away, but a captain can leave “his ship” like that. Esp. since he only had a single scene that was not at all important for any plot in Dr.Who ever since and is now returning because of his “love for Gwen” (their words not mine). Right now it feels a bit as if the whole show is cheaping itself.
Viane
January 31, 2011 at 6:03 pm
Awix
Don’t see where is said, that the Ianto fans have sabotaged his career . There is nothing in the link you posted.
I usually don’t believe accusations without proof. I’m not of those who believes everything only bc somebody tells me so. I want a proof. But I can’t speak for others who are well too credule.
And it’s totally ridiculous to compare the outcoming of this twitter poll to the 6 Mio audience of CoE.
And if 856 are few compared to 6 Mio. then I could say what are 145 nay-sayer compared to 6 Mio.
You seem to think these 6 Mio don’t care if Ianto comes back. Surely it is so, but I could say they won’t oppose if he comes back. Unlike you, who clearly want him to stay dead.
kirri
February 2, 2011 at 1:48 pm
No there is nothing in the link about him saying he does not want to come back, either!
Awix
February 2, 2011 at 2:47 pm
So if he doesn’t say he doesn’t want to do something, it automatically means it’s an ambition of his…?
He also doesn’t say he doesn’t want to a) study medicine b) become pope or c) have a sex change.
Let’s hear it for Her Holiness Pope Garethina the First, M.D…
I’m not saying he *definitely* doesn’t want to come back. I’m pointing out that he *has* said things which suggest that he doesn’t, and *nothing* to suggest that he does.
Not that it matters as Rusty, Moffat, and everyone else with an interest in the show has repeatedly said that they’re not going to ask him back anyway!
Awix
January 31, 2011 at 6:34 pm
I don’t know where Karel found that, either. Not saying it’s true, not saying it’s false. But it sounds at least vaguely credible to me that GDL would want to distance himself from people who maintain shrines to fictional characters and express their displeasure with an organisation by sending it free gifts.
My point really *is* that most people just don’t care about Ianto dying. They’re not going to seek out websites about him in order to express their indifference in a poll.
I suspect that as you say most people would say they didn’t care whether he stays dead or not. If I do want him to stay dead – and it’s not like I’m on some crusade to make sure that happens, I don’t need to, because only a small minority of people think his death can or should be reversed, none of whom have any particular power over the show – if I *do* want him to stay dead it’s because I don’t want TW to turn into Dallas, which became a joke rather than a serious drama when it miraculously resurrected a dead character just because they were popular.
“TW series 4, scene 1… Gwen wakes up and hears the shower running. Enters bathroom, finds Ianto in the shower.
‘You’ll never guess what I just dreamed about!’ says Gwen.
‘We’re trying to use the bathroom, Gwen,’ says Ianto, revealing Tosh is in the bath and Owen is using the bidet. ‘Can we talk about this later?’
Scene 2:
Ianto is walking through Cardiff. Weevil leaps out and kills him. Jack is very angry. ‘Oh my God, they killed Ianto! You bastards!!!!’
(Ianto goes on to be killed and inexplicably resurrected in every other episode of the series. People working at the BBC are very upset as they have to start buying their own coffee for the first time since 2009.)
A
Jips
January 31, 2011 at 7:28 pm
It seem absolutely credible to me that SIJ do not want Gareth to send our voice. We want him to continue his career because we don’t want him to beg for his job back, we do ask taugh to BBC and CO THE POSSIBILY TO BRING BACK Ianto Jones.
He did say thousand of times that the Shrine is flattering, again to convention.
Think what you want here.
Do you hate all the shrines like the Sherlock Holmes one? Or all the campaign to bring back Fictionnal characters like Sherlock Holmes, Daniel Jackson, or those who campaign to bring back their favorite shows, two great example now: Legend of the Seeker, Stargate Universe?
“My point really *is* that most people just don’t care about Ianto dying. They’re not going to seek out websites about him in order to express their indifference in a poll.”
Well Awix, you don’t speak for me here if I put my shoes on a basic viewer.
It’s not the vviewers sitting their back in a sofa who will made a show successful, it’s the fans who buyed merchandises and ask for more. If you don’t spend money for more, there is no point to continue something.
“if I *do* want him to stay dead it’s because I don’t want TW to turn into Dallas, which became a joke rather than a serious drama when it miraculously resurrected a dead character just because they were popular.”
Sorry but I most disagree on that. You don’t want to be a Dallas (when Dallas is it’s all about a nightmare, nothing happened.) but you don’t complains when the resurrection was done before and you watch a show completely laughing at the dead and you going to watch a show when EVERYONE is Immortal. Sound strange to me.
Sci-fi = Anything can happen just like oh look, the body was completely destroyed but is back 😉
Awix
February 1, 2011 at 4:00 am
Okay. I don’t ‘hate’ all the other shrines (I didn’t know there were any). I don’t hate the Ianto shrine, honestly, but I don’t really see what purpose it serves.
The ‘bring back Sherlock Holmes’ campaign was on a different scale to this. I am utterly indifferent to everything to do with Stargate, never watched an episode, and haven’t even heard of the other show you mentioned.
(But I would say there’s a difference between reviving an *entire series* due to widespread and persistent public demand, which is what happened with Holmes and Star Trek, and attempts to bring back one character within an ongoing series.)
‘It’s not the vviewers sitting their back in a sofa who will made a show successful, it’s the fans who buyed merchandises and ask for more.’
Well, if that were the case, shows like Roswell and Angel and Firefly would never have been cancelled, because they all had some of the most dedicated fans on the planet. I remember hearing somebody say that if all the dedicated, merchandise-buying fans switched off (or on) simultaneously the viewing figures would change by 1 or 2% at best. Those kind of numbers aren’t significant to the advertisers who actually pay for the programs.
“Sci-fi = Anything can happen”
No, that’s *bad* sci-fi. In good sci-fi there has to be rules, has to be logic. Otherwise there’s no sense of an internal reality to the show, no tension, never any real threat to the characters (we may know deep down the regulars almost certainly won’t get killed but it has to seem like a possibility for the storytelling to work).
In every other case of the series doing a resurrection it was planned all along and usually didn’t last. Jack’s immortality is a major part of his character. Susie’s resurrection was for one episode and shown to be a Bad Thing. Rhys was killed and resurrected within the same episode as part of that episode’s plot. Owen only died because they wanted to turn him into a zombie, it wasn’t that they shot him and then tried to think of a way to bring him back. You can get away with resurrecting someone if that was your plan all along and you wrote it that way. In this case they obviously didn’t.
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Jips
February 1, 2011 at 7:26 pm
“Well, if that were the case, shows like Roswell and Angel and Firefly would never have been cancelled”
I am not sure about Firefly but that was not because they killed characters it was cancel after the movie. I’m honest, I didn’t remember the reason. It was a good show taugh.
Angel was because the script writer didn’t want to continue.. no? I’m not sure too.
Ha Roswell was good 🙂
Well I think regular viewers since they don’t spend money didn’t really help to wonder if the project should be finance or not. A viewer can take a decision to turn off the TV or watch something better for his taste. I’m not saying they don’t count, but I think the fans are more important to help a show continuing forward.
Yeah I know why they resurrect characters, that’s my point too. You resurrect a character to made a story about it, saying dead is dead in sci-fi or it will cheap the story is rubbish (in my opinion) especially when they done it before. I mean you can resurrect Ianto and made him evil, or bring another dimensionnal one for X reason for the plot. That’s all what I am saying, it’s my opinion about that.
Awix
February 1, 2011 at 8:20 pm
It’s my understanding that all of those shows were cancelled because they simply weren’t getting big enough audiences. Firefly in particular was a very expensive show that almost nobody watched except the hardcore fans.
You know, I wouldn’t necessarily have a problem if for one episode they brought in Ianto’s Evil Clone from Another Dimension or something like that. But what I’m sensing people actually want is just to basically reset everything the way it was prior to CoE, on a permanent basis. That would spoil CoE for me (=my opinion only) so I’m against it.
A
Jips
February 1, 2011 at 9:21 pm
“But what I’m sensing people actually want is just to basically reset everything the way it was prior to CoE, on a permanent basis. That would spoil CoE for me (=my opinion only) so I’m against it.”
I’m not sure I understand what you mean here. Can you clarify please (language confusion :()?
If you mean like your Dallas example (COE never happened, Hub is back, SUV, 456 never come etc), I agree with you. When I said resurrecting in him, I want it fit for the plot like I give for example (the alternate Ianto from another dimension)
Awix
February 2, 2011 at 4:09 am
Well, what I mean is that if they want to bring GDL back as a different character – Ianto’s long lost twin brother, for example, who blames the others for his death and hates them all, or Evil Ianto from Another Dimension (could be problems with this as it’s impossible to travel between dimensions without destroying the whole of reality in the TW universe 🙂 ) – then I’d would be against that if the story was good enough.
If the story is just about resurrecting original Ianto on a permanent basis, then I’d be against that no matter how they did it…
So I’m not anti- bringing back GDL as a different character, just anti resurrecting original Ianto…
A
Viane
February 1, 2011 at 2:20 pm
Torchwood and logic, that one was really funny awix. But you have your opinion , and others have theirs . And it seems we will never agree. These discussions going round and round are just tiring everybody. So I’m going back to the reason of this post. “What is it about Ianto Jones that can create such fierce loyalty in the fan base? ”
For me Ianto is the emotional center of Torchwood.
His emotions are all well hidden but when they come to surface that is like an firework of violence, emotions, feelings. So much human. For me he is more caring that Gwen, and has more courage than Jack . He is a character with such dephts that nearly everything is believable coming from him. (Gareth is so good)
I was eager to see the developpment of this character and can only hope now all these missing stories will be told someday. So that are my feelings about Ianto and all I can say is: YES bring him back.
Awix
February 1, 2011 at 3:01 pm
I *know* TW could be illogical. It’s one of the annoying things about the first couple of years: how ridiculously the characters act, along with many other things (. I would like it be less illogical and absurd in future. One of the reasons I (shock) liked CoE was that it got rid of a lot of the silliness of the first couple of series and actually seemed like a show made for a mainstream rather than a cult audience.
My thoughts about why Ianto in particular inspires such intense popularity are rather different to yours, but as I’ve already given them a couple of times in this thread I won’t bother to do so again.
I *will* repeat that he was my favourite character. I like the way he started, I like the way he was allowed to develop, and I like the way they killed him off. I’m happy with the way things are. But you’d probably already figured that out…
Jo
February 1, 2011 at 3:15 pm
Ianto, for me, represented the humanity of Torchwood. He wasn’t the genius, hadn’t studied for years to get his medical degree, he was the coffeeboy, the cleaner, the admin. In fact, he was the ‘little person’ busy in the background so that the others could shine. That, for me, made him so easy to empathise with, for most of us are humble drones, doing jobs that are essential but largely unappreciated. And like so many of us, he could, when asked, rise above the mundane and become extraordinary.
He was also so very human in his perspective on life. He was brave and scared. Withdrawn and avant garde. Tough and sensitive. Ianto was the most difficult Torchwood operative to pigeon-hole. A square peg in a round hole so often; an enigma wrapped up in a quandry. The butler with the Bond fetish, for me he was the most interesting of all the characters, the easiest to relate to yet the most difficult to understand.
I miss him.
Gwen, on the other hand, was incredibly obvious. Her sexual desires. Her need for control. Her determination to have her own way no matter the cost to others. Also very human – a bratty, teenage type of human. I lost all respect for her when she retconned her loyal, loving boyfriend – with a drug suspected of causing mental breakdown!
Gwen Cooper: The Teflon Tart. Gwennie Sue. The Gweninator – all names I have found online. Indeed Princess Gwennie Poo has a whole LJ comm dedicated to her ridicule and who can be surprised when this rookie is handed Torchwood leadership on a plate, aquires the ability to do autopsies from nowhere, can suddenly fight like a ninja with two guns blazing…..etc……etc……etc……
And why?
Because she is so very much RTD’s little favourite of whom it has been stated (paraphrasing Julie Gardner here) ‘She is the audience perspective and can never die’.
Pity.
I doubt Ianto will return, he eclipsed Gwennie Sue much too well. I, however, will never return to watching Torchwood without him.
Jeis
February 3, 2011 at 11:46 am
You said very well about Ianto being essential for Torchwood and able to become extraordinary. I agree with every word.
Sheree
February 2, 2011 at 7:06 am
I could identify with Ianto Jones. He was professional, in the background, did the work the others wouldn’t/couldn’t. He was funny and intelligent. His quirky wit in Sleeper (the first episode I watched) grabbed my attention. He tried to save his girlfriend and almost destroyed the world but who wouldn’t take the chance if it was someone they loved? He was human.
Gwen, on the other hand, lied to Rhys from the very first show, abandoned her partner and her job to spy on Torchwood, ignored all the keep out signs managing to get the hospital porter killed and she wasn’t even with Torchwood yet. Even though she had only been on the police force 6 months and had no training in anything except getting coffee, getting files, and getting her behind kicked in a bar fight, we are told she has the skills to profile, research, and act as a liasion for the police. And yet we see her doing none of these. In 2 episodes her attempts at profiling are laughable. After reading a report and seeing nothing helpful she passes it to Tosh who discovers information they could use. In subsequent episodes it is Ianto who liaisons with the police. She justifies her affair with Owen by saying she can’t talk to Rhys. However the episode is the one with the HUMAN cannibals. That was the one case she could have talked to Rhys about.
People claim she brought a human perspective to Torchwood. I don’t think so. The others have loved and lost. She lost nothing and loved no one really but herself. She was immature, close-minded, could not see the big picture. Her constant challenging of Jack and tantrums in the workplace were unprofessional, lowered team morale, and was just annoying and boring.
Finally, Julie Gardner said in an interview back before COE was started that Janto fans would love when they were taking Jack and Ianto’s relationship, that we would see it grow. She said that they were even talking about them having a partnership by series 6. What a lie and I believed. Instead episode 1 of COE, they are bickering over the word couple, Jack’s being an ass and Ianto is whiny. The characterization of all 3 Torchwood operatives was dreadful. They were unrecoginizable. The PTB ended it with Gwen having her happy ending (whatever happened to everyone will make a sacrifice?), Ianto stupid, dead, and a liar, and Jack unsympathetic, murderer of his own flesh and blood.
Will I watch the new Torchwood? No, never.
Jeis
February 2, 2011 at 11:23 am
Well, I won’t be original. I agree with many others who say that Gwen’ actions contradict what we are led to believe about her – tremendously. In normal, real life any person who behaves even partially like Gwen would be severely reprimanded, fired and even identified as sociopath (I’m talking about her tendency to lie, physical violence, her inability to recognize basic human emotions and empathize with those close to her).
For me the problem with Gwen is that she is so poorly written. There is no integrity in this character. Plus, she is not “just a human” – she is very bad example of human being. And I don’t like the notion that I somehow “should” identify with her. Thanks, but no, thanks. I am not ashamed to say that I’m better than Gwen.
Gwen is outsider in Torchwood. Her motifs are always personal, her opinion somehow always outweigh Torchwood protocol and policy. Her actions never help Torchwood, just the opposite – they often lead to mess and trouble (and death) that could be avoided if Gwen not insisted that she knows best. But there are never any consequences for Gwen actions – and that’s not normal. She is clearly above the Torchwood rules – and that’s the irony, especially now, when we are told that Gwen is the last remnant of Torchwood. In truth Gwen never was Torchwood, contradicting every rule, every order without right to do so, without any knowledge. She is not special, she is not necessary, she is hot useful, she brings mess, chaos and egoistical motifs – it’s always about her, what she thinks and what she wants. She even betrays her own team thinking that she knows better. But somehow that’s OK, because Gwen has her own “superior” morality. She is very comfortable with her “special” position in the team and near Jack, but what’s the foundation for this uniqueness we don’t know. And that’s basic contradiction. This series was called “Torchwood” not “Gwen Cooper Adventures”.
Ianto, on the other hand, exists in Torchwood, he acts always in accordance of Torchwood cases, even trying to be egoistical and save Lisa – but he really acts as normal human being. He does hundreds little things that make Torchwood work. And there is simple matter of balance. Ianto makes two major mistakes during his time in Torchwood, based on his belief that he can somehow help OTHER people. Aside from this he is steady, constructive, witty and knowledgeable presence, who has the best interest of Torchwood in heart. Gareth portrayed Ianto as deep, interesting, captivating character with internal integrity, loyalty and ability to emphasize, to care for those close to him. He is “just a human”, but he is good example of human, I can (and do) identify with him, I wish I knew him or have a friend like him. Gareth did excellent job. He breathed life into Ianto Jones.
Torchwood could exist without Gwen – and there would be fewer deaths, less mess and less destruction – but without Ianto’ steady presence and irony it wouldn’t be Torchwood. He IS integral part of the team, while Gwen just pretends to be when it suits her.
And still, by some miracle, Gwen, the least knowledgeable person in Torchwood, the least experienced, the least inclined to understand first and act later – is alive and well, while others – more capable, more experienced and smarter are dead. That’s another contradiction. It’s illogical. It gives an impression that Gwen somehow better, smarter, and tougher that her more seasoned colleagues. But that’s not true. She is just above “in Torchwood everybody dies young” rule – another one. See – she is not Torchwood.
Of course, in MD creators can make Gwen caring, honest, loyal and witty, but no matter what they can’t retcon people into believing that this is Gwen Cooper that we knew. No, Gwen as the character has certain history, and people remember what she is like.
I honestly think that Ianto was killed because he was more popular than Gwen. No, that wasn’t “drama”. Drama has meaning and Ianto’ death was meaningless and stupid, not dramatic. And I agree with those who said before me that Torchwood creators (or RTD) tried to make audience to accept Gwen by removing every other likable character (and by destroying Jack’ personality). I can only say that in my case it didn’t work. Like people said – it’s sci-fi, good authors can make their stories interesting without destroying everything. What they did with Ianto and Steven was lame writing. It’s no use to say that in real life death can be meaningless too. This is not real life, this is a story and every act, and every move should have a purpose. In case of Ianto’ death “drama” was not a purpose, because “people are sad when their lovers die” doesn’t need an illustration. Killing the character in such stupid manner just to make other character do something terrible because, apparently, he is “crushed by grief” is still lame. Death is not a tool that can be used that clumsily.
So, to answer whether they should resuscitate Ianto Jones I say – no, because that show they call Torchwood doesn’t feel like Torchwood anymore. Witty, loyal, quirky and caring Ianto Jones was integral part of the old, classical Torchwood. He was the soul, but seeing that the heart of Torchwood is irreparably damaged (Jack) and the body is destroyed (the Hub) – there is no place for the soul to dwell. The best they can do now – let Gwen save the world as RTD clearly wants her to, remove Captain Jack from this so-called-Torchwood and let more creative and more caring writers to write something decent for him. Then they can resurrect Ianto and let him found his way to Jack in some wonderful spin-off (and I’m sure, our boys will find a way to get Qwen and Toshiko back. And maybe then Myfanwy and Janet decide to return too).
Erica Freeman
February 12, 2011 at 1:27 pm
THIS, basically all of this. It illustrates so much of what I had a problem with and did you know in a Russell T Davies interview in the Torchwood magazine, Issue #17, Oct/Nov 2009, he said:
“As a colleague of mine who worked on soap operas used to say: ‘You don’t rape Snow White.’ In other words, you shouldn’t push your central characters to the point where they become the walking wounded.”
He said this about Gwen so apparently Jack isn’t even the star of the show, Gwen is which I don’t understand at all. She was supposed to be the person the viewer could identify with as we both learn about Torchwood but it didn’t work for me.
I refuse to believe Myfanwy is dead. She’s still flying around in Wales after Ianto set her free at the controls and Jack opened the hatch for the elevator.
I think a fair comparison for Ianto’s death leading Jack to something destructive would be Willow losing Tara. However, in her case, it lead to a wonderful episode where her grief combined to the power she held and previous problems with stepping over the bounds with the power led to her almost destroying the planet. Now, that is quite a statement that losing love, having her lover die in her arms made her almost destroy the world and everyone in it because she couldn’t have that one person…whereas Jack simply destroyed the world for himself but saved it for everyone else. The other problem with that is the Doctor, we know he can come in any time and fix it but he didn’t and we never even got an explanation why…
Also, Willow and Tara had been properly done and developed as a couple over three seasons complete with a breakup or two, meeting family and sex…actual plotlines instead of subtext or a scene here and there like with Jack and Ianto.
Ruby
February 2, 2011 at 3:07 pm
My main problem with Gwen has always been that she’s been presented as perfect, the Heart of Torchwood, the one who brings the human element, etc, when I didn’t see any evidence to support that claim.
We are told that she loves Rhys – so much so that she’s willing to open the Rift to bring him back when he died towards the end of season 1. So far so good. However, when she did get him back (whatever happened to ‘dead is dead’?), instead of staying with Rhys and not letting him out of her sight, she spent god only knows how long sitting beside Jack’s corpse. Let’s not even mentioning cheating on him with Owen, and retconning Rhys after telling him about the affair, so that she could be forgiven without having to live with any of the consequences. Even on her wedding day, she would have run off with Jack, if he’d asked her to.
We are told that she’s the one who cares, the human element. She doesn’t seem to care about her colleagues (well, apart from the one she slept with and the one she has a crush on), though – she didn’t take Tosh’s feelings into consideration when she started the ‘Who was your last snog’ game, and didn’t seem to notice Ianto was even there until he spoke up. Telling Ianto, who must have lost most, if not all, of his friends at Canary Wharf to cheer up when he mentioned the ‘dying young’ thing in “To The Last Man” came across as rather insensitive as well. She was quite rude about Estelle’s belief in faeries (because, what, aliens exist, but it’s unthinkable that faeries do, too?). She only started caring about Eugene after he died. She treats Andy horribly.
We are told that Gwen led the team when Jack was away. However, given her reaction to the ending of “Small Worlds”, she doesn’t seem capable of making the tough decisions that the leader of an organisation like that would need to make. In an eisode of season 1 (I think it might have been “Combat”), Tosh is putting together a report for UNIT, so presumably the two organisations deal with each other, and yet when Martha showed up, Gwen didn’t know anything about UNIT. So who dealt with that while Jack was away? She didn’t know about Flat Holme, so she couldn’t have handled that either. And in “Kiss Kiss Bang Bang”, the one actually giving orders in the field is Owen. Sure, Gwen gave orders during the aftermath, but when they entered the house to confront the Blowfish…
And just to add insult to injury, even though we’re meant to believe that everybody dies young in Torchwood, Gwen is not only still alive, but she hasn’t lost anything – she gets to have her happy family, while everybody else lost everything.
Ianto is far easier to identify with. Sure, he’s not perfect either and he made mistakes, but they are mistakes that feel more understandable. We’ve seen that he loves completely and can be loyal to a fault. We’ve seen that he cares – even after the team have killed what was left of his girlfriend and he could justifyably have hated them, he was willing to sacrifice himself to give Tosh the opportunity to get away from the cannibals. And after Owen died and got turned into the living dead, it was Ianto who gave him the “are you really gonna let this beat you” pep talk. His chemistry with Jack was wonderful, and I would have loved to see their relationship develop. Oh, and Ianto’s dry with doesn’t exactly hurt either.
On the whole it’s a ‘show, don’t tell’ thing. We are told that Gwen is the Heart of Torchwood, but what is shown suggests that that title would be more fitting for Ianto.
Do I want them to bring Ianto back? That’s actually quite a difficult question. On the one hand, what I’ve heard about the new season of Torchwood so far doesn’t excite me – COE changed the direction of the show, and not in a way I find interesting. I prefer my entertainment less dark and depressing. Ianto being there would not change that. However, if they brought Ianto back, I would probably watch it despite my misgivings. If they don’t, I won’t. I’m quite happy to support Gareth’s other projects instead – the money I don’t spend on Torchwood merchandise and subscription fees can go towards travelling to gigs.
EA
February 2, 2011 at 4:18 pm
I always felt it was because the fact that Gwen is somewhat hypocritical. She calls out Jack on all his little miss deeds but throws everything to the wind when her world is out of wack and what she wants in no longer there. I also think it has a lot to with the fact that she treats Rhys like shit and she is so completely selfish. This goes back to the fact that her oh so big bleeding heart is for the world unless its her image of her life that is being destroyed. Example Season 1 Episode 13, Season 2 Episode 4 and so on.
Plus Ianto is flawed yes, but open. He is trusting (after Lisa) and gives with his heart. You can see it in the little things that he does and his world is Jack. His attentions are not divide like Miss Cooper who has no qualms in the fact that her words hurt and how she throws her self at Jack is just so well desperate. For me that is a small part of it.
blucougar
February 3, 2011 at 12:51 am
I missed the first episode when I started watching Torchwood. If I had seen the episodes in order, I think I would have come to dislike Gwen much sooner. One thing made me thoroughly dislike her, and it was amplified as the series went on, and that was her obvious habit of lying to her boyfriend.
Gwen lied to Rhys in the very first episode, at a point when she had no reason to do so. He asked her if she’d been anywhere near the murder scene that he’d seen on the TV, and she told him no. There was no reason to lie. She didn’t have to feel compelled to give a minute-by-minute description of what happened, but just to say she’d been there and didn’t particularly want to talk about it. But instead, she outright lied to him, and that set the tone for how she treated Rhys right up until “Meat” in series 2.
Gwen was promoted as the audience’s window into Torchwood; as the heart of Torchwood and the character that reminded a hundred and something year-old Jack of what it meant to be human. In reality, she was a lying, cheating, manipulative and selfish woman who constantly puts her own wants and needs before everyone else.
She is, quite literally, the embodiment of everything that is reprehensible in human nature.
ea4848
February 3, 2011 at 8:25 am
I dislike Gwen for many reasons. I recognize that from the beginning it is quite clear Jack and Gwen were the “main” characters and the rest were meant to be back up but for me they have always been the two worse characters. Both having no morals, a complete lack of control, utter selfishness, and are completely narsassitic. Plus both LIE through their teeth.
For me I have a hard time enjoying characters who are always looking for some kind of recognition for the “selfless” things that they do. I have a problem with a woman who has a perfect guy but pines and loves her hero. A woman who lectures everyone about self control and working as a team but the moment her world is altered to a way she doesn’t like goes off on her little tangent and does what she wants with no thought to anyone else.
Ianto has his flaws don’t get me wrong but he is remorseful, loving and there for everyone. He often puts his needs last and is will to go to great lengths (always) for the people he loves. Unlike Gwen. I mean really if she loved Rhys at all she would not have been giving Jack lovey dovey eyes in Meat or Something Borrowed. I mean really kissing the man you risking things for but looking to see the reaction of another please gage me.
Gwenwood, hmm I predict Rhy’s Death in the first three episodes, she will claim her childs as Jack’s and then the Doctor will make her immortal and you know what their lives will suck because Jack cannot do faithful and she will not share even if she has her own little affairs. And really does anybody want to watch that. Gage me.
Jeis
February 3, 2011 at 10:53 am
I forgot to mention several traits of Ianto that I find very appealing.
I’m not sure about others, but I wish there would be someone in my life who could know me – like Ianto knew Jack, good enough to notice that he is lonely; who could offer me their support no matter what – like Ianto offered Jack; who could offer me comfort even if I don’t understand that I need it; who’d trust me with their life and knew that I trust them to take care of themselves and of others if necessary; who is creative and strong; who knows when to speak and when to listen; who could support my decisions or help me when I struggle with tough one; whose steady presence could ground me, give me hope that my job is really important and maybe I’m not so bad about it; who would share their life with me even knowing me at my lowest moments; who’d trust me to take care of them if they need care and support; who could love me as I am and accept my love without loud declarations, by letting actions speak instead of words.
I think for Jack Ianto is this person.
Saying this I have to specify that I like Ianto not because of his relationship with Jack, but because of what this relationship did FOR Jack. I think, for Jack Ianto is the source of something very appealing to the most of people – the source of affection, trust, devotion, comfort, sense of belonging, sense of home, acceptance, forgiveness, pride, loyalty, love and many other positive feelings.
We are told that Jack is Torchwood’ lead character but at the same time we know very little about his life, but know every boring detail about Gwen. Sometimes it seems that Jack’ single purpose in Torchwood is to sacrifice himself again and again, especially to cover others’ mess (without any gratitude, I must add) and then to be found guilty anyway. And the only normal, positive, human thing ever happen to Jack – is his relationship with Ianto. That’s what makes Ianto so appealing (for me). In the weird world of Torchwood he is amazingly human, positive, balancing presence, constructive foundation for Jack’ larger than life “force of nature”. And at the same time he is wonderfully professional. This is impressive mix. And I admire Gareth’ ability to create such strong impression with so little scenes he was given.
Ruth
February 5, 2011 at 10:26 pm
I have a completely different view about COE and yet I will not be watching the next series of Torchwood. I didn’t hate COE .The plot was ok ,a little heavy on the political side of things for my liking and it had plot holes but then again most things do on television these days. The acting was brilliant and Euros Lynn pulled some brilliant acting out of John Barrowman .The death scene was amazing and yes I cried my eyes out for a long time afterwards and I don’t agree with a lot of people about Jack not saying I love you He said it in fact he said it before Ianto in the words “I take it all back but not him” Jack was ready to give up the fight for the man he loved. I always take this scene back to the end of Cyberwoman when Gwen asks Jack if he had ever loved anyone that much that he would risk everything. I sill not watch because Ianto was my character pure and simple.
I don’t actually watch a lot of television maybe 3 shows a week so for a program to catch my attention and hold it has to have some element that is very special. I found Ianto to be refreshing . He wasn’t a in your face hero type he was quiet and refined and real. Jack (excuse me Jack fans) I find acts like a bratty child at times and while others may find this endearing I feel he needs a good smack upside the head (although Jack may enjoy this!) Gwen I do not dislike I find her character very strong I found the episodes when she cheated on Rhys to be very uncomfortable to watch but not unrealistic. I get annoyed that she hasn’t suffered personally and that she never gets reprimanded by Jack for lack of respect for his authority. I admire her attitude to get to the truth but again she is not enough to pull me back into the program.
I just think that Ianto had a lot of potential and the glimpses we got to see whet my appetite for more. I can only watch so much of a show that bashes it’s main character with the emotional stick before my brain goes “it’s only Jack he’s immortal and he will get over it. He has too he has no other choice” I guess I was more emotionally attached watching how the others dealt with jacks immortality. I think they could bring Ianto back and still retain the importance of the death scene in COE. They have some really brilliant writers on the new series and I think we are selling them short if we think it can’t be done.
Erica Freeman
February 13, 2011 at 2:16 am
“They have some really brilliant writers on the new series and I think we are selling them short if we think it can’t be done.”
Excellent point and if nothing else, I keep thinking of Joss Whedon’s shows which so obviously inspired Rusty, Julie and Steven. He kills characters all the time but they tend to come back in some form or another and the shows ends up being stronger for it. Even Lisa appeared again as a sort of vision after Cyberwoman and I don’t recall anyone complaining about that appearance or when Susie came back.
Ally
February 25, 2011 at 10:39 am
I’m one of the ones who think ‘Torchwood is dead’, ‘They destroyed Torchwood’. Because by the end of COE, I felt like there was nothing left of the tv show I fell in love with – the tv show where even in the darkness, there was a spark of light. A guiding hope. Even in the midst of lost, a way to rebuild.
My favourites were Toshiko, Ianto and then Jack. I never had a problem with Gwen (although rewatching now, I DO have a problem with her). And from the end of Season 2 to the end of the week that was COE, the entire Torchwood team died except for Jack (who can’t die) and Gwen. The Hub was destroyed, the SUV stolen, Myfanwy missing presumed dead (confirmed dead if you listen to RTD). I started realising this around Day 3 of COE when I looked at it and thought ‘This is great. But why doesn’t it feel like Torchwood anymore?’ So I panicked and read spoilers and Ianto’s death was the last straw for me.
I guess the ‘magnetism’ of Ianto as you put it, is his one liners. The fact that he’s been through so much, and he’s survived and able to make that snarky comment. I think…what with him starting out as a more mysterious character than the others, with his past more hidden in shadow, fandom at large snatched at the chance to imagine who he is, why he’s a part of Torchwood, what his story is. And I guess through that, people started loving him. He loves completely. He’s loyal to a fault. He makes mistakes but he pays the consequence and moves on.
As for Gwen…like I said, I had no issues with her to begin with. She introduced the show well. She did a lot of stupid things, but she had her moments too. If I ranked the Torchwood members in terms of favourites though, Gwen would be last. Not because I hate her, but because I love the rest more. I didn’t really care about her enough to love or hate her. COE changed that. COE made me realise she gets away with too much. She’s the centre of her own world, and that never changes despite seeing how much more there is out there. She never gets called up on being too selfish. She never suffers. Every member of Torchwood did except her. Tosh in the UNIT cell, Owen and his fiancee, Ianto and Lisa, Jack and everything. All of them went through trauma and came out of it into Torchwood. And yet Gwen continues to have the best of both worlds. How did she survive COE and still be pregnant? She’s too perfect. I guess I couldn’t relate to her. Grief is an easy way to relate to a character. Shared experiences.
I guess in the end, I’m perfectly happy to look at COE as a political drama on it’s own. But I can’t connect it to Torchwood because Torchwood brought me out of a depression I couldn’t claw my own way out of. And if I connect the two, I have a slippery slope waiting for me to slide down with no forseeable way back up.
Ianto returning would be the light in the midst of that darkness. Would reinforce that it’s sci fi and anything can happen. It might not be realisticly feasible, but then again, that’s why it’s ‘fiction’ in the first place.
I won’t be watching the series they’re trying to link as Torchwood. I’m not masochistic enough. It hurts.
I don’t even know why I’m commenting. I thought I’d left all this behind already.
Mes
June 1, 2011 at 3:08 am
This is an incredibly late response, but I just thought I’d say this:
I love Ianto Jones, I really do, but I hope to God he doesn’t come back.
I’ve lost faith in Torchwood, but if he were to come back, he may draw me towards watching the new Torchwood, which, in my opinion, from all the worrying stuff we’ve heard about it, would only weaken Ianto’s character.
I’d prefer to remember him for his first, inspiring life, even if it ended in a crappy death, then his crappy second life.
amanda
July 4, 2011 at 12:36 am
I love Ianto Jones and I’ve been in a on and off bad mood with his death….
RTD has destoryed Torchwood by keeping Gwen bloody Cooper in and alive!!
Why Gwen? Not Tosh or Owen Or even Ianto let alone Stephen?
amanda
July 4, 2011 at 12:43 am
I’m new to all this by the way….
Hey!!
I’ve always said that I’ll complain about something or someone and I was going to write down on the Net…..I finally done it!!!
If anyone here likes Gwen Cooper a bit your may not like this but I’m slight Anti Gwen Cooper, I always knew that she might have done something really stupid to Torchwood and the amazing members.
JR
July 6, 2011 at 10:51 pm
Gwen is a liar, an infidel and a hypocrit. Ianto lied, but out of love for Lisa. There’s no evidence that he ever cheated on her with Jack. Ianto followed his heart.
So Ianto’s going to be mentioned in Miracle Day? So Jack and Gwen are going to have a little “What Ianto Meant To Jack” chat? So what? Everything I have heard about Miracle Day makes me want to puke. Tell me one thing, why did Jack come back to watch over Gwen? Has he already forgotten HIS DAUGHTER whose heart he shattered? Of course! Gwen is, after all, the one we are are supposed to like. Here’s the thing though. People like Gwen – who lie and cheat and think they walk on water – are the kind of people I hate. So to have her shoved in my face, down my throat makes me regret ever finding Torchwood.
The best part of television, especially sci-fi, is discovery. But from the opening line of series 1 episode 1, Gwen’s place as our “eyes and ears” to Torchwood are spoon-fed to us. She served her purpose in series 1. Series 2 only served to highlight her incompetence. Children of Earth tried to make her into an action hero (with a heavily shielded womb made of teflon) and showcased just how BAD a leader Jack is.
And since Miracle Day is carrying on the dream of RTD’s Excalibur/Gwen Cooper Action Hero Show, no I’m not watching. Do I want Ianto back? Hell yes. He balanced out Jack and Gwen’s fallible perfectly while being imperfect himself. Without him in Torchwood, THIS fan will NOT be a viewer. And we ALL know that all RTD cares about is viewers. Tell me something though… Miracle Day is only 10 measly episodes yet new sci-fis are popping up. Falling Skies is a hit, Terra Nova looks good, Walking Dead is coming back. Not to mention Doctor Who, Sanctuary, Primeval and there’s the good old stand bys: RERUNS on tv. Trek, Doctor Who, Torchwood 1 and 2 (very few repeats of Children of Earth), Battle Star, Star Gate, Being Human… I doubt Miracle Day can compete. It’s too slick, too sensational in its determination to be like all the others.
Sharon
July 14, 2011 at 9:42 am
OK.
So I’ve decided- I want to see TW if it lets me have flirty charming Jack back…
My problem- I’m still upset about this all Ianto thing. LOVED HIM SO MUCH and wanted him and Jack to be ENDGAME.
Thus, here my idea- why not regard the current series as a prequel?
We all know Jack have had rough times before…
Y not regard the series from now on as prequel, as TW b4 Ianto? Then series 1-2 take place- where he comes and fixes Jack (finding a way for the both of them to stay together for eternity or rather die together).
Also, of course, I’d have to regard CoE as it had never happened- but that won’t be a problem 😉
What do you think- can I pull it off?
Pamela
July 14, 2011 at 2:00 pm
I love Torchwood , ( not Miracle day, i don’t consider it as Torchwood) one of the biggest reason i watched Torchwood used to be Ianto Jones i am not that big of a geek , i do love all those aliens stuff in Torchwood but i did loved its human aspect & it was not Gwen for me , she is too loud too brash & she was not loyal towards her loved one she claimed to Love Rhys sleeps with Owen & claim to love Jack, Ianto on other hand was loyal to his girlfriend & later towards Jack & smart, witty, passionate everything a man should be Ianto was that as character was perfect to me.. & Gareth David Lloyd is just one brilliant actor his portrayal of Ianto is too brilliant i won’t say anything about Eve’s acting skills i neither like or dislike her, but GDL i adore & love & without him Torchwood kind of incomplete for me, but now its not only that the issue i have watched the first episode of Miracle day its not only a very bad copy of 24 & X-files but add with it bad acting , editing, direction too much American for me after watching Gareth, Naoko Mori, & Burn Gorman it was painful to watch new cast’s attempt of acting..
Nyrhalahotep
July 14, 2011 at 2:26 pm
Not to mention Ianto was a very snappy dresser! Thank you Pamela! I love to hear my readers thoughts and I welcome every single one!
Cheers, Bryan (Nyrhalahotep)
Sharon
July 15, 2011 at 10:20 am
U should hear this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b012fqsz
shannon mckee
July 31, 2011 at 2:32 am
Ianto was one of the best characters . I really love and respect Jack and Ianto.
Jack is a really good leader and someone that i look up to. He makes big sacrifises ( his grandson) to make the world right.
Ianto there is too much positive things to say about Ianto so to summarise, He is such a strong character , he cares about his friends and thinks about concequences before he does things. Hes funny, witty, Gorgeous and a good friend to the torchwood members . He can be trusted again even after Lisa and i love his relationship with Jack. He shouldn’t have been killed that ruined season 3 and didnt want to watch the last episode for weeks because he wasnt in it and i couldnt believe they would kill a main character off. Its like killing JACK.
Babs
August 2, 2016 at 7:09 am
Jobs puts it beautifully /disrespect characters and folk won’t watch /ianto died to destroy jacks heart and then you see jtorture and kill child on camera and be a monster/ianto could have fought for Stephen howled at jackey to stop been shot anyway by lady soldier then jack could walk away give himself to 456perhaps /it’s sordid scriptsuckking kids for highs Dafu